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Boxer Rebellion
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longbaby View Drop Down
Knight
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Posts: 50 		  Quote longbaby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Boxer Rebellion
    Posted: 07-Nov-2012 at 02:52
Originally posted by longbaby

Today I read a statement: "The Boxer Rebellion had much to do with the failure of the 1898 reform".
Well I seriously doubt this statement. I think these two events had nothing at all to do with.


Generally speaking, the 1898 reforomists, mostly the gentry people and headed by Kang You-wei and Liang Qi-chao, were the elites of China then. Those boxers were mostly low-class peasants in Northern China. They didn't understand what the 1898 reform was about. They rose up simply because of their hatred of Westerners.
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Posts: 528 		  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2012 at 08:40
Longbaby, in re your:  "They rose up simply because of their hatred of Westerners."

So, the Boxers were simply a Chinese version of the Klu Klux Klan?  Or of Russian mobs bent on a pogrom in the Jewish ghettos?

Or could it have been that frustration directed at Westerners was a safe outlet for the anger they felt for being under foreign (i.s., non-Han, i.e., Manchu) domination. Perhaps akin to today's Chinese mobs attacking Japanese targets?
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2012 at 08:47
Originally posted by lirelou

Originally posted by Nick1986

A bullet has higher velocity than a spear or nail and will expand on contact. Perhaps there's another explanation: the Chinese rebels were "bulletproof" because they tied cloth strips around their major arteries before battle to avoid bleeding to death


Actually bullets that expand on contact are illegal undercurrent laws of war, and to my knowledge were not in common use during the period of the Boxer rebellion. In addition, they were hardly necessary. The rifles of many contingents of the allied force in China were newer, high velocity, smokeless powder rounds firing at up or over 2,000 feet per second. High velocity gunshot wounds include what is called "kinetic vacuity". As the bullet passes through a body, the vacuum it produces creates a shock wave that damages tissue not in the immediate passage channel of the round. If not debrided (cut away), tissue within the shock wave area begins to rot, inducing gangrene. So, the European forces in China didn't need expanding bullets. The high velocity of their rifles sufficed.

Weren't dum-dum bullets only illegal when used against European armies? The British used them in colonial wars as they were more effective in bringing down charging tribesemen
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Knight
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Posts: 50 		  Quote longbaby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2012 at 22:00
Originally posted by lirelou

Longbaby, in re your:  "<span style=": rgb232, 220, 208; ">They rose up simply because of their hatred of Westerners."</span>
<span style=": rgb232, 220, 208; "></span>
<span style=": rgb232, 220, 208; ">So, the Boxers were simply a Chinese version of the Klu Klux Klan?  Or of Russian mobs bent on a pogrom in the Jewish ghettos?</span>
<span style=": rgb232, 220, 208; "></span>
<span style=": rgb232, 220, 208; ">Or could it have been that frustration directed at Westerners was a safe outlet for the anger they felt for being under foreign (i.s., non-Han, i.e., Manchu) domination. Perhaps akin to today's Chinese mobs attacking Japanese targets?</span>


Seems I should consider this issue more closely. Yes, those mobs attacking Japanese targets these days simply want to let out their anger. But I am not as sure of Boxers over 100 years ago. Their deep mentality is beyond me. I think I need to study it more.

Edited by longbaby - 08-Nov-2012 at 22:01
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Posts: 528 		  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2012 at 22:44
Nick, the revolution in high powered rifles took place in the 1880s and 1890s, and were first noted in the Boer War, 1899-1902, which started before but was contemporary with the Boxer Rebellion. The U.S. Army volunteer and state units called up for the Spanish-American War were still carrying the trap-door loading 1866 Springfield in 45-70 caliber, which was big enough to down any tribesman. But the regular units sent to China were armed with the Krag-Jorgensen, a 30-40 round that may well have incited some troops to crease their bullets dum-dum style. But these would have been the exception. Army regulations frowned upon damaging ammunition. The Mausers, Enfields, and Moisin-Nagants, however, were powered at least the equivalent of the 30-06 caliber that the U.S. Army adopted with the Model 1903 Springfield, and I suspect the Japanese arms were as well.  
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Posts: 528 		  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2012 at 20:59
Heyamigos, in regards to your post, to wit: "Chinese can easily understand the Arab mind.  Basically both have been humilitaed and bullied by Western nations in the past.  They despise what Western nations dictate and tell them to do in modern times.  Both cultures deep down really want to coexist peacefully with the West.  The arrogance and self interests needs to stop."

There is this from a USMC history of the Marine Amphibious Corps that landed in North China to disarm and repatriate the Japanese. Note that this action was conducted over much the same territory that the Boxer Rebellion had been fought on. Perhaps what the "Chinese mind" can understand best is what its government tells it to understand.  

"Long before daybreak on 30 September the convoy anchored in the bay off the mouth of Hai River. With dawn, as if out of nowhere, appeared a swarm of sampans manned by enthusiastic Chinese crews who sculled their small craft close to the transports to exchange mutually unintelligible badinage with the troops lining the rails and to trade cheap trinkets. The aura of good-natured welcome continued as the Assistant Division Commander of the 1st Division, Brigadier General Louis R. Jones, and his staff boarded a patrol craft to lead a procession of LCTs carrying men of the 7th Marines over Taku bar and into the narrow channel that led upriver to the Tangku docks. It was the start of a daylong victory parade. "Until long after dark groups of Chinese lined the river banks, gathered...outside their...houses to cheer each boatload of Marines."<2>

At 1030, General Jones set foot on the docks and met with Chinese port officials to complete arrangements initiated by General Worton's advance party for the reception, transportation, and billeting of the Marines. The 3d Battalion, 7th Marines, entrained for Tientsin, while 2/7 bivouacked in the warehouse area beside the docks. Elements of the IIIAC Shore Brigade, built around the 7th Service Regiment, also disembarked on the 30th to start unloading cargo. On every hand, the "Chinese military and civilian authorities were cooperative in the extreme,"<3> and no trouble of any kind was experienced with the Japanese garrison.

The tumultuous welcome that greeted 3/7 when it arrived in Tientsin was repeated and reinforced the following day as the 1st Marines and Division Headquarters Battalion reached the city by rail and road. The streets were packed with Chinese of all classes and European expatriates. Trucks and marching troops literally had to force their way through the happy, flag-waving throngs to reach their assigned billets in the former International Concessions. To many of the men, it seemed that their welcome must have out shone and out shouted "any welcome given to troops any time, any place, and anywhere during the war."<4>"
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2012 at 11:57
Originally posted by lirelou

Nick, the revolution in high powered rifles took place in the 1880s and 1890s, and were first noted in the Boer War, 1899-1902, which started before but was contemporary with the Boxer Rebellion. The U.S. Army volunteer and state units called up for the Spanish-American War were still carrying the trap-door loading 1866 Springfield in 45-70 caliber, which was big enough to down any tribesman. But the regular units sent to China were armed with the Krag-Jorgensen, a 30-40 round that may well have incited some troops to crease their bullets dum-dum style. But these would have been the exception. Army regulations frowned upon damaging ammunition. The Mausers, Enfields, and Moisin-Nagants, however, were powered at least the equivalent of the 30-06 caliber that the U.S. Army adopted with the Model 1903 Springfield, and I suspect the Japanese arms were as well.  

I thought the Americans used expanding bullets in the Philippines. One officer argued that "savages" with fatal wounds didn't go down like white men, but kept going until they had beheaded their enemy
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Posts: 528 		  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2012 at 10:58
Nick, the "U.S. volunteer" units that saw service in the Philippines during the Spanish-American war carried the latest version of the 45-70 trap door Springfield rifle , a single shot weapon that fired a 500 grain bullet. When the insurrection fried up, those Civil War technology weapons were replaced by the 30-40 caliber Krag-Jorgensen, a more modern repeating rifle with the trademark box magazine riding up next to the bolt, in many but not all volunteer units.

The Regular Army units all carried the Krag-Jorgensen. U.S. recruited and equipped Philippino units could carry either rifle, depending upon the sponsoring U.S. units priority in the chain of supply.It fired a 220 grain bullet. Earlier attempts to increase the weight of the bullet had produced problems.

That 500 grain 45-70 round needed no 'dum-dum' treatment. It could have taken down a Moro "juramentado" at 600 yards had the terrain in the Philippines afforded such shots. 

Over the course of the insurrection, many U.S. Volunteer units traded in their trap=door Springfields for the far more modern Krags. The Krag was considered by the troops of the period to be under-powered for war. (So was the .223 cal/ 5.56 mm M-16 round at first) The Krag was also sold on the Stateside civilian market as a sporting weapon, and well regarded as such. This means that differing weight and expanding bullet cartridges were easily available Stateside and that individual alteration of bullets in the field was possible. I don't know that any expanding rounds were actually "issued", because I can't find any evidence that such were ever manufactured in the U.S. for military use. Understand that modifying a 30-40 Krag round would have severely effected its accuracy at any but the closest ranges. The most likely 'dum-dum' treatments in the Philippines would have been .38 caliber pistol cartridges.

Also, note in the link that the laws on war on 'dum-dum' type bullets has exceptions.

 http://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule77
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2012 at 08:36
http://www.russojapanesewar.com/boxers.html
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Posts: 126 		  Quote heyamigos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2012 at 05:45
For the Chinese, this wasn't funny at all.  It marked a turning point in their history.  It was the appex of how they realized they were weak and getting 'bullied' by the West.  Many Chinese today strive to modernize their nation because remembrance of these 'humiliations of the past' has not escaped the collective mind.  That is why I think Americans and West in general should try to tame China and bring it 'into the fold.'  Trying to isolate, alienate or contain them during their time of growth/modernization only lends credence to the long held belief that Westerners do not want to see a modernized China and will do everything to try to prevent that (even if it means going to war and bomb China to submission).  On the other hand, if the Chinese progresses to a level on par that of Westerners, it is beneficial that we tame them now and show we welcome them into the larger international family of peace and prosperity.  Their people (not their govt.) will see this and hope to emulate other aspects of the West besides material wealth (ie individual and societal rights, democracy, etc.)
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Posts: 528 		  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2012 at 14:30
Heyamigos, in re:  "Their people (not their govt.) will see this and hope to emulate other aspects of the West besides material wealth (ie individual and societal rights, democracy, etc.)"

A question: If the Chinese control the information that their population receives, as in well proven by their control of the internet and jailing of dissidents to include web bloggers, how will the people of China ever get to see any evidence that they are 'being welcomed into the larger international family of peace and prosperity'?

Where is the evidence, beyond the radio rantings of extreme right commentators, that America and the West in general are trying to isolate, alienate, and contain...China?
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Posts: 126 		  Quote heyamigos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2012 at 03:22
^Mainlanders were even allowed to travel to Taiwan to witness their last presidential elections.  Many Chinese have seen the world outside of their own.
 
A prerequisite during the US presidential elections was a question on 'getting tough with China'.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that China (and by implication all Chinese) are now the pariah and boogeyman of the world thanks to Western media
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2012 at 10:41
It would be smarter if the Americans formed a partnership with the Chinese and pooled their resources to colonise the moon. What they're doing risks bringing about another Cold War
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