Romans vs Spartans

In this alternative history the Roman Empire and a Spartan-led Greece coexist. Seeking to conquer Greece a Roman legion finds itself confronted by a Spartan phalanx.

Who wins?

In my view it would be a Roman victory. A volley of javelins would thin out the ranks of the phalanx, enabling legionaries to rush into the gaps and get to work with their gladiuses. The Greeks' cumbersome spears would be useless and their slashing swords ineffective as there would be little room to swing them

Are we talking just shields and swords, or are they packing other weapons?

Even fight... swords and shield? What time frame? The tech edge remains with Romans true....it then boils down to fighting spirit and ethos and morale (and the Spartans had this long before Rome) and leadership.

Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 12-Jul-2011 at 19:32

The three ya name Nick and add perhaps four more and ya just made my point. The ethos of the Spartans and their historic excellent leadership given the aforementioned caveats... either prevail or die on the ground. The probability that the Romans run is greater. As this generic situation is then entirely dependent on leaderhsip.

Originally posted by Nick1986 A retreat may not neccessarily mean defeat. Unlike the Spartans the Romans didn't fight fair. They could pretend to run then lure the Greeks into a trap

Originally posted by Nick1986 They encountered such tactics at the Battle of Cremera in 477BC. If things started to go badly they may well have employed a similar tactic to lure the Spartans into the open

Originally posted by Nick1986 Roman cavalry would definitely tip the balance but i'm just talking swords and shields. Both these weapons gave the advantage to the Romans: the gladius was made from high-quality steel and the shield was strong yet lightweight, protecting the soldier from neck to knee and providing him with a vicious weapon in the form of the shield boss which could be thrust into an enemy's face to temporarily stun him while the legionary is busy killing his mate

Roman cavalry is just as bad as non-Macedonian greek cav, they wouldn't be able to tip the balance because on top of being weakly trained, they were usually present in very small numbers (about 5% of the total army). I think the Spartans would definitely win against the Romans, one main reason is due to the phalanx formation against which the legionaries would definitely struggle. In a phalanx formation infantrymen are tightly packed and able to defend each other with the very large Hoplon whilst stabbing the enemy with their spears. Technically speaking, both the Roman and Greek infantry use a similar tactic of hiding behind large shields and stabbing when close to the enemy only that the Greeks have the advantage of keeping the enemy at a distance.

In terms of the Roman javelins, I am sure that they would be quite ineffective against the heavily armoured Spartans. The Pila would not be able to penetrate their hoplons, they have been shown to be effective against lightly armoured troops such as the Parthians and Gauls, not Greek hoplites. I don't see a big difference between the gladius and Greek Xyphos, they are both similar and effective.

As someone said earlier, unless the Spartans are heavily outnumbered in which case the hoplites in the flank or rear of the phalanx would really struggle, the Spartans have a good chance of winning.

Again, movement is a major trade-off when fighting in Phalanx formation so I don't think that would really matter. Actually, when the Romans met the Dacians they were cut up into pieces due to the Dacians' use of Falxes and sickle swords which were able to cleave through the helmet and bring immediate death to the unfortunate Roman soldier. A Greek falcata would have had a similar slashing property making it quite effective in the same manner as Dacian swords. But I definitely agree concerning the laminated breastplate which would have been able to withstand such attacks.

My main point was that the phalanx formation would be difficult for the Romans to break through which could only be an advantage to the Greeks.