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Autie
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Topic: Was Custer a war criminal? Posted: 05-Dec-2011 at 07:50 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
While the Indians did raid other tribes and even massacre women and children, such actions were generally small-scale until the white man provided them with firearms. While i've always been a big fan of old Westerns, i quickly began wondering what the white settlers were doing in Indian territory in the first place, and why it was acceptable for Americans to kill the natives and force them off their land
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Agreed...as a child I felt the same about taking over Indian lands. As I grew older and realized that even before America...Euorpe had these land wars for thousands of years. Many, many, people died in this process and typically by those who had become advanced in technology (better weapons) won these wars.
It doesn't make it right, but it is reality.
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“[I have] too much confidence in your zeal, energy, and ability to wish to impose upon you precise orders...” - Terry to Custer
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tjadams
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Posted: 05-Dec-2011 at 09:54 |
The Indian policy of the US was shameful, harmful and a stain that cannot be washed off. But in slight defense of the actions, it was just was it was for the times. We cannot blame them by today's moral yardstick. Just as everyone can honestly say slavery was wrong today, 140 yrs ago it wasn't wrong. It was what it was. Custer's actions were just one more turn of the wheel of history. He did well during the Civil War with these same kinds of tactics, but this time, the hand of Fate decided to deny him. The rest is history.
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Autie
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Posted: 05-Dec-2011 at 11:38 |
Agree again TJ. GAC was just a cog in the machine. Not many (if any?) ACW Generals fared well out west against the NAs. The Indians were taken out more by sheer public masses than by any one individual or army regiment.
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“[I have] too much confidence in your zeal, energy, and ability to wish to impose upon you precise orders...” - Terry to Custer
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tjadams
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Posted: 05-Dec-2011 at 12:33 |
That is true Autie.
For all the white puffy clouds how righteous and supportive of human rights for the Union's part in the Civil War, the American Indian was the next target in expanding Republican ideals until Grover Cleveland, a Democrat, took office.
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Nick1986
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Posted: 05-Dec-2011 at 19:11 |
General Howard was one. He successfully ended Cochise's guerrilla war by negotiating a treaty with the chief
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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lirelou
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Posted: 05-Dec-2011 at 22:10 |
Ah, a generation weaned on "Doctor Quinn, Medicine Woman". The only Indians who were dealt a dirty deal by the government were the five civilized tribes. They had accepted co-existence with the Whites, but the discovery of gold in Northern Georgia sealed their fate. Sold down the river by a blood brother to the Cherokee, Andrew Jackson. And the only Congressman to oppose the Indian Resettlement Act that lead to the 'Trail of Tears" was Davy Crockett, who had been elected on his fame as an Indian fighter. As a result, Crockett thus lost his seat in Congress and went to Texas.
The frank truth is the Plains tribes way of life was doomed once the Americans started crossing the plains and widespread european immigration provided the masses that would people the 'Great American Desert". The great majority of those involved, white or red, never understood how rapid that process would take place. Bernard deVoto's Across the Wide Missouri which is a study of the Mountain Man culture, captures the period when the middle of the continent was the Red Man's territory, and the sadness of those who, a mere generation later, realized that it was passing into history.
Custer was merely one cog in the wheel of the nation, and those insist on viewing him as some agent of genocide are engaging in mere 'feel good' rhetoric that ignores the meaning of the word. Ah yes, it must have been the design of those evil republicans! There was one light in this thread's darkness, as evidenced by the reference to the Comanche, whose northern plains counterparts were the Cheyenne and Lakota. Pekka Hamalainen's Comanche Empire is well worth the read, despite it's sometime overly stilted sentences, for anyone truly interested in what life in the Southern Plains was like for native Americans.
Oh, Autie, here's an idea: It was never about 'land' per se. It was about the improbability of two such different civilizations sharing the same continent. And the American expansion west was no different than the Vietnamese expansion south, and the Cossack expansions east, or the European expeditions into the heart of Africa. All of them impacted upon the peoples they came across, sometimes to their benefit, and sometimes not.
Edited by lirelou - 05-Dec-2011 at 22:18
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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
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tjadams
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Posted: 05-Dec-2011 at 22:16 |
Originally posted by lirelou
There was one light in this thread's darkness, as evidenced by the reference to the Comanche, whose northern plains counterparts were the Cheyenne and Lakota. Pekka Hamalainen's Comanche Empire is well worth the read, despite it's sometime overly stilted sentences, for anyone truly interested in what life in the Southern Plains was like for native Americans.
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Being a Texas History teacher, I have that book.
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lirelou
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Posted: 05-Dec-2011 at 22:21 |
Yes, I was surprised that they got as far south as Aguascalientes. No mean trick, given how arid the Northern Mexican deserts are.
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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
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Autie
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Posted: 06-Dec-2011 at 08:01 |
lirelou...thanks for your post and well said!
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“[I have] too much confidence in your zeal, energy, and ability to wish to impose upon you precise orders...” - Terry to Custer
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Nick1986
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Posted: 26-Feb-2012 at 19:37 |
Custer hanged Confederate prisoners until Mosby threatened to do the same thing to his men: Grey Ghost
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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Nick1986
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Posted: 16-May-2012 at 19:06 |
This topic might interest our new member Scamp
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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Scamp
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Posted: 19-May-2012 at 10:17 |
Indeed.
Custer was so frustrated by John Mosby's raids that he resorted to burning down prominent old ladies houses in Northern Virginia in a futile attempt to make the people tell where Mosby may be hiding.
Shucks, this makes him a hero for the Unionists, not a war criminal.
Not too many people in Northern Virginia saddened to hear about his demise.
Edited by Scamp - 20-May-2012 at 05:38
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Nick1986
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Posted: 24-Jun-2012 at 19:39 |
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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Pellethie
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Posted: 16-Jul-2012 at 19:55 |
War criminal is a pretty touchy term when discussing such American historical figures, but in my opinion Custer was a reckless officer, an overly ambitous glory seeker and an inept Indian fighter. Not only did he attack the peaceful camp of Cheyenne leader Black Kettle on the Washita River, but later risked the lives of the entire 7th Calvary at the Little Big Horn.
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