Chevrons, Crusaders, Sea People?

But, the number of my postings mean nothing if not one of you "get the drift", if you please?

Just why would the Egyptian stone cutters make all of the enemy wear such "chevrons?"

Especially since it seems these represented "Rank/"

That is, I feel the real question!

Edited by opuslola - 16-May-2011 at 17:55

Ron, I did not follow all the links, example, http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/rank_page/History_of_Enlisted_Ranks.htm, not found, and I don't know much about Velikovsky's research, and I'm not sure how you link "chevron" as an architectural term denoting the rafters of a roof to your idea. Can you add a little about horned helmets? The "chevrons" of the Sea People look more like some form of armour, or breast plate, so maybe you can present some examples of armour for us to compare? Also you skipped over the obvious evidence of concrete, which would date the "carvings" to the medieval period. And talk of bronze swords makes me think dates after 1300.

"I might well even suggest that certain well known battles were really “games of chess” played by royalty in a form of gambling! The winner took the spoils or won the wager, so to speak, without the expenditure of monies or loss of lives! "

Fantastic idea, can you elaborate!

Edit to go Abracadabra! Phoenician=Venetian! Away with 1000's of years! This is the Battle of Lepanto!

Edited by shokdee - 18-Jul-2011 at 04:17

Shokdee, you also wrote above;

"Ron, I did not follow all the links, example, http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/rank_page/History_of_Enlisted_Ranks.htm, not found, and I don't know much about Velikovsky's research, and I'm not sure how you link "chevron" as an architectural term denoting the rafters of a roof to your idea. Can you add a little about horned helmets? The "chevrons" of the Sea People look more like some form of armour, or breast plate, so maybe you can present some examples of armour for us to compare? Also you skipped over the obvious evidence of concrete, which would date the "carvings" to the medieval period. And talk of bronze swords makes me think dates after 1300."

Actually the description of rafters as chevrons is merely a descriptive dictionary term, and may well only have been applied to these rafters after the use of them (in construction) became common?

Horned helments! I. Velikovsky made a great deal of rather convincing evidence in his works concerning the usage of differing types of armour and swords and shields (interestingly called "targets!") and the time of their usage by a group called "Greeks", during the times that Spartans and Athenians were mostly mercenaries for various potentates, mostly today called the Persians. Velikovsky attempted to change the datings of the events closer to the modern era, and thus moving Rameses III and others to the time of Necho, etc.! As I remember his downdating covered about 600 years, thus radically shortning Egypts history. Thus the bas reliefs found in Egypt, now thought to describe the times of Rameses III, show some of the warriors wearing horned helments, and horned helments with a disc between the horns, and with both round "targets" and long retangular "targets", as well as with both short swords like the "gladius" and long swords. In the thoughts of Velikovsky, this was merely a evolutionary change in the equipment used by Greek mercenaries around the Med. area within a period of but a few years and not hundreds.

By your mention of bronze swords and 1300, I assume you mean 1300 CE, as opposed to the convential historians use of 1300 BCE? There does exist a large gap there for sure! smile

And, yes, I also consider that the chevron symbols could be some form of armour, but the various numbers of stripes seen on the reproductions of the panels seem to denigrate this form of thinking somewhat. That and the fact that the battle was supposedly fought upon the delta region of Egypt, seems to rule out heavy armour usage upon boats and the marines manning them. Being lost overboard would seem to secure death, which is not a pleasant thought, unless the armour was made from reeds or bamboo, etc.!

From what I remember the missing site, as well as another site, seem to date the usage of "chevrons" as signs of rank, began with the French (Persians?) some time in the 16th century CE., perhaps somewhat earlier?

In essence, what I was trying to do, was to go Velikovsly one step further and make a case that these representations are of the Crusader attack upon Egypt that occured in the 12th or 13th century CE!, and perhaps later. Whereas Velikovsky attempted to remove about 600 years from the dating of these works, I would suggest the removal of 2,000 or so years.

In other words, I have attempted to offer enough information to question even the revisions of Velikovsky. I would move the times of these invasions of the People of the Sea, etc., to include both the 5th and 7th Crusades.

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 30-Jul-2011 at 18:06

OK, I use "CE" instead of "AD", got it. You are strictly following the Fomenko suggestions are you not? Commonly assumed chronology places the manufacture of Bronze swords closer to 1300 BC.

Thus I would guess you also follow the ideas the French scientist Davidots (spelling?) who proposed that the giant stones in the largest pyramids were cast on the spot in concrete, and the theory that these pyramids were the burial places of great kings from around Europe (Russia?) and the Med., area in Medieval times and even later.

But, I cannot see a great deal in common with the Battle of Lepanto, that is why I use the battles concerning Egypt during the 5th and 7th crusades. Although I have little reason to place my complete faith in the dates we currently ascribe to these events.

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 28-Jul-2011 at 09:06

Joseph Davidovits and the re-discovery of technology for making concrete.
Please read these pages and spread the word....

Pyramids 1 - The stones are man-made (synthetic, artificial) Cast in molds. (Follow links at bottom of the 1st page for more, total = 5 pages)
http://www.geopolymer.org/archaeology/pyramids/are-pyramids-made-out-of-concrete-1

Pyramids 2 - The evidences (5 pages)
http://www.geopolymer.org/archaeology/pyramids/pyramids-2-the-evidences

Pyramids 3 - The formula, the invention of stone (3 pages)
http://www.geopolymer.org/archaeology/pyramids/pyramids-3-the-formula-the-invention-of-stone

Pyramids 4 - Videos and download Chapter 1 of his book
http://www.geopolymer.org/archaeology/pyramids/pyramids-4-videos-download-chapter-1
http://www.geopolymer.org/fichiers_pdf/pyramid_chapt1.pdf (660 kb pdf)

The Famine Stele: hieroglyphs on pyramids construction (4 pages)
http://www.geopolymer.org/archaeology/pyramids/famine-stele-hieroglyphs-pyramids-construction

Colosses of Memnon, masterpiece by Amenophis Son of Hapu (4 pages)
http://www.geopolymer.org/archaeology/civilization/colosses-of-memnon-masterpiece-by-amenophis-son-of-hapu 

High performance Roman cement and concrete, high durable buildings (2 pages)
http://www.geopolymer.org/archaeology/roman-cement/high-performance-roman-cement-and-concrete-high-durable-buildings

The Pyramids in Bosnia (Europe), man-made stone or Roman concrete?
http://www.davidovits.info/wp-content/uploads/Bosnian-Pyramid-Geopolymer-Concrete.pdf (160 kb pdf)

Error or forgery on the Stele of Merneptah, known as Israel Stele
http://www.davidovits.info/496/error-or-forgery-on-the-stele-of-merneptah-known-as-israel-stele

Don't miss this recent interview in mp3 format (visit site for links):
http://www.redicecreations.com/radio/2011/04/RIR-110417.php

=================

Ron, have you read Vladimir Melamed and Robert Grishin's "The Medieval Empire of the Israelites" ? Then see, Appendix 2. History's "flying Dutchmen" by Georgiy Kotsylev which is an extract from a larger article from Georgiy on military history. Does this match the Sea Peoples argument of Velikovsky?

Edited by shokdee - 31-Jul-2011 at 08:44

Dear shokdee, I do not understand a part of your post above, where you state that you have looked at battles, in yours words "specific ones and cannnot find anything suitable."

Do mean that you have examined the major battles fought in Egypt during both the 5th crusade and the 7th crusade?

If that is the case, I don't see how you could not "find anything suitable"

I think the reports for both crusades present suitable battle examples.

You also continued by writing, "Why would they come all the way to the Nile Delta to battle? What is the motive for this war?"

Now I am confused since these wars are specifically noted as "Crusades!"

Thus they (the people of the sea) came to Egypt to give fight in a crusade position, etc.! There is nothing complicated about that in current thinking, although revisionism might well consider other motivations, which of course, totally muddies the "real motivations" for these attacks.

But, whilst I am here and able to write, I would like to make some more observations concerning my motivation to attempt to connect actions now thought and believed to have occured thousands of years ago, to some actions that occured less than 1,000 years ago, E.g., 1100 CE/AD to 1300 CE/AD, at the earliest!

You also should consider that the places mentioned in the events the two crusades, as well as other identifications of cities and places, now considered as correct, do not stand under close observation, and might well be the incorrect names, or incorrect places, etc.

After all, just how many people have ever realized that their existed a place in Egypt (now in Cairo) that was also called "Bablyon" and also probably had hanging gardens! I also contend as does the Fomenko group that it was in the Babylon of Egypt that Alexander died, and was buried!)

Oh! And, yes the "chevrons" seen upon the chests of the "Sea Peoples", could well have been leather strips of upper body armour! It is just the lack of consistancy in the number of strips worn by differing warriors that has led me to believe that they really were displays of rank! After all, they seem to remain elements of coats of arms, as well as military rank even today.

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 30-Jul-2011 at 18:12

Dear shokdee, I think you are getting Fomenko history confused with our consensual history. Remember Fomenko considers there to have been multiple places called Jerusalem (various spelling occur). Alexandria, in Egypt was supposedly the first one, thus a crusade in the 12th or 13th century CE, might well assume that Jerusalem/Alexandria/Egypt might well be a target for a crusade!

Certainly if the trapping of Alexandrine Jerusalem had already been mostly transferred to Istanbul, there might certainly be some reason to try and regain the original place?

And, yes there is a lot of reasons to see that some famous representations have been mis-identified, or a number of places shared similar defenses, etc.

I even question the use of great chains that were supposedly hung across harbor accesses in those times. It seems that anything strong enough to stop heavy gallies, whould have to be suspended in the water by floats, because of the weight of the iron chains would tend to make them both stretch and sink creating a deep water entrance at the lowest point, and I also doubt a windlass that could be managed to raise and lower such a chain (in some places at least) across a space exceeding a few hundred metres at most. Were oxen or men or wind-power used to raise and lower these chains? But I am certainly not a mechanical engineer so I can only speculate about these things. But the tensile strength of iron (not heated and treated steel) tends to be towards the brittle side as I believe I have read, so it would not take too much to literally pull iron links to the point of breaking.

And, I have looked closely at representations of the bas-reliefs or what ever type of relief they are called, and it does seem that the more chevrons, the greater the chance that they seem to be in some position of power or command. I think I have counted as many as six chevrons upon some of them.

Restricted by time right now!

Regards,

I am most sorry to have misunderstood your posts! I thought we were "having a problem communicating!" (a paraphrase on a line found within the movied "Cool Hand Luke!" smile!

Re; Fomenko, et al, does not claim that Alexandria, etc. was just another "Jerusalem", I would disagree with you.
Al Kuds, al-Quds, and the other names connected with said place, could easily be considered to describe "The Holy City", etc.

Could you give us a quick lecture concerning your theory, thus the "Big Bang Model?"

Regards,

The number 3 example shown below is an almost perfect example of the chevrons seen on the chests of the Sea People.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/art/dict/chevron.htm[/URL

http://www.merriam-webster.com/art/dict/chevron.htm

Here is a good depiction of the reliefs showing the battle with the Sea People. Chevrons are apparent and in varying numbers.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=medinet+habu&qpvt=medinet+habu&FORM=IGRE&id=55AE2BBF8D2F3C797DAA33CD518F92CB905DBBA7&selectedIndex=209#view=detail&id=BF7B338A34FC100BE7FBB005E02F4B3E23CE757D&selectedIndex=558

Regards, Ron

Edited by opuslola - 01-Jan-2014 at 11:58