"Moors" and southwestern Europe.

Cav.., So we might also say that the idea I presented is not "dead" but merely disputed? Heck almost everything is disputed! chuckle! What we really mean is the fact that most everything we think we know about the past is "subjective", and not really "objective!" It is all then, and now mostly "opinion", yours, mine and theirs!

I contend that there exists no real proof about anything thought to have happend before the existance and mass use of the printing press! Before that time (whenever it actually was) there was the "opionion of the Church", of "The King", or the Royal or Church "Experts!", and in most of those times the "Royal and the Church" were connected at the hip!

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 24-Oct-2009 at 16:22

Yes, maybe so? But, it seems to me that the Vandal empire or state became the predecessor, in some weird way, of the Barbary Pirates? Because, pirates would be one of the best way to descibe the Vandals, eh?

Regards,

Cavalry.., wrote; "Different periods and totally unrelated, except for geographical location. There were many people that espoused Vandal model."

Maybe? Just what was so great about the "geographical location?" Why was it continually used by "pirates" for centuries? Why were the early admirals, etc. of the "Barbary Pirates" from Holland, etc.?
Just how did the Vandal / Alan nation, after many years of being a land wandering enterprise suddenly become a great sea-faring nation?

The Dutch were always known as one!

Just why did Carthage, a great sea-faring nation, only attack Rome via an overland attack? Heck, even the Arabs reportedly led a successful sea-born attack of and sack of Rome! It seems earily similar to the Vandal attack?

It even seems that the Goths, took over N. Africa from the Vandals / Alans?, and then the Franks? / Normans (whom ever they were) took their place! Here is another case whereby a nation mostly noted for very short sea voyages, like across the English Channel, were able to mount a great sea escapade through the Straights, and into the Med., with out having an outlet to the Med. available! Just how did they avoid all of the enemy ships surrounding Portugal, Spain, N. Africa, etc.?

Essentially, just what is the biggest difference between the words "Berbers", and "Barbarians?" / "Barbary Pirates/ coast?"
From what point was the Arab attack upon Rome taken from?
Lots of questions, no matter what period of consensual time we consider!

I believe even the Franks / Normans? also took Rome?

Lots of similar action(s) in the same area!

Edited by opuslola - 28-Oct-2009 at 11:40

Originally posted by calvo I disagree here. Moorish influence here is MUCH greater than Germanic influence; judging by the pure fact that the Moors have left the Alhambra, the great Mosque of Córdoba, and the old city centres of many cities in Andalucía, Murcia, Extremadura, and Aragón. What about the 4000-5000 Arabic words in modern Spanish? Anything that begins with Al- has Arabic origin. Madrid was founded by Arabs. What have the Goths and Visgoths left here? Most of them were assimilated into the Hispano-Roman population and did not leave any cultural influence of their own. Culturally speaking, I reckon that the external influences (from strongest to weakest), come like this: - Roman (obviously) - Arabic - Celtic - Iberian and Celti-Iberian - Germanic - all the rest.... (Tartessios, Carthaginians etc) Genetically speaking, I probably would agree that most Iberian genes are native; because in the case of any migration or colonization; the foreign settlers are always far smaller in number than the indigenous population. This applies even to the Romans; who left the most profound cultural legacy. The population of the Iberian peninsula at the time of the Roman conquest was estimated at 4-5 million; and Italy had an estimated population of 6-7 million. I very much doubt that the Romans had sent half the Italian population to colonise Spain! Even within north Africans, whom many consider to be "Arabs", most of the genes are native rather than from the Arabia

Edited by fernao - 26-Oct-2009 at 10:11

Originally posted by cavalry4ever You got your facts slightly wrong. I am not biased against northern christian kingdoms, but these were backwater fiefdoms, really backward. They were independent because of topology and were under Caliphates's political control. The civilization was being built in the Western Caliphate (751 -1031) not in those fiefdoms. The civil wars destroyed Western Caliphate but translations of some of books in the largest library in the world of that time (400,000 books), were propagated  all across Western Europe. Science, literature, medicine and architecture flourished to an unprecedented level. You can see to this day the Arab influence in architecture of southern France (cathedral in Puy de Dome). There was good series about this by BBC but I don't remember the name. If you ever visit Spain, see ruins of Medina al-Zahara and old part of Cordoba. It is interesting that when historians tried to estimate the level of living of people in that Caliphate, they came to conclusion that it is still unmatched in Europe.

Edited by fernao - 27-Oct-2009 at 04:39

Originally posted by cavalry4ever fernao - the end of your post about immigrants is a bit xenophobic. Maybe Portugal will be better of with a heterogeneous society. It is interesting to see a hostility toward immigrants from a country that was providing cheap labor for the rest of Europe, for many years and was able to improve itself with a heavy help from EU.

Edited by fernao - 27-Oct-2009 at 14:13

Lets see, various parts of N. Africa, with land and ports upon the Great Middle Sea, were:
Egyptians, Libyans, Greeks, Hyskos, Greeks, Persians, Berbers, Romans, Goths,Vandals, Arabs, Angevins or Franks, Ottomans, and the Barbary Pirates!
Note, I may well not have all of the proposed inhabitants in order of their appearance!

Can you name others?

fernao - Just few facts:

Edited by cavalry4ever - 15-Nov-2009 at 12:01

Making a "giant step?", or guess, what would any of you think about the possibility that the term "Fais do do", which is a French American colloquialism. But, I see a possibility of a relationship to the Portuguese "Fado."
I base this belief upon the fact that the Acadians (Archadians) who were dismissed from the area around Nova Scotia and Quebec by the English. These thousands of people of French ancestory, had to leave this area quickly and it seems the only way for them to leave was via ship.

Now, can anyone speculate whereby these people who had their lands and economy seized by the British, had the means to secure berths or rent ships to take them to Louisiana? It is said that the possibility exists that no more than about one half of them lived thru the sea voyages to Louisiana. It seems storms and other disasters made this a very perilous voyage.
I have found no information indicating that British vessels were provided for this extrodinary deportation! But, it seems that various ports in the area served as summer resting places for the Portuguese fishing fleet, which was one of the most formidable fishing fleet of its day.
I there fore propose that many if not all of the deportees made passage in one way or another with the Portuguese fishing fleet! And thus left their "idyllic lands!", which was by the way, the main theme of the Portuguese Fado! It might well be that their destination was also considered to be a most "Idyllic" place also!, IE, a New Arcadia!
It would take little imagination to consider that entire families were crushed into these Portuguese vessels and were kept in close confinment with the Portuguese crew for weeks or months of the long voyage around Florida and into the Gulf of Mexico, to Mobile or New Orleans!

If indeed "Fado" music was a part of the life of these Portuguese seamen, then these French exiles would or could have expected to have been exposed to the music and receive a translation of the words during this long voyage. Ultimately I propose that the word they heard in Portuguese "Fado" was connected to a similar sounding word in French thus "fais" or "faison!", etc.!

And the ultimate creation of the "Fais do do!" which has become an important part of the Cajun lifestyle! Probably as a remembrance of the lost lands, the terrible trials of the sea voyage, and the glory of the arrival at their new home!

You are welcome to look it up!

Any takers?

Edited by opuslola - 16-Nov-2009 at 12:00