Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

1453/1492

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 234
Author
Bernard Woolley View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian


Joined: 11-Jun-2008
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 154
  Quote Bernard Woolley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 1453/1492
    Posted: 21-Mar-2009 at 21:03

Originally posted by Maharbbal

The sultan of Morocco did manage to buy ships directly in Amsterdam, so did the Genoese, and even the English, why not the Turks? Finally, lets not forget that hundreds of Ottoman-built ships existed at the time in Greece and on the Alexandria-Constantinople route. Why was there enough timber for domestic trade but not for international trade???

All that to say, I don’t think the endowment type of explanation is sufficient.

The Ottomans did charter foreign ships to transport goods within the empire (by the 18th century, for more than half of the domestic trade, according to your Panzac article) - so it would seem there wasn't enough shipping available domestically.

Originally posted by Maharbbal

With the exception of fairly trivial stuff (falling price of sugar) the majority of Europeans hardly saw the difference… oh and lets not forget fur hats.

Corn and potatoes were far from trivial new products, and tobacco was very important.

Originally posted by Maharbbal

To a very limited extent this happened in the OE (Bursa replaced by Aleppo, Aleppo by Smyrna). Overall oversize growth of cities happens usually if 1. Some particularly stable services move in (finance in particular tend to be sticky), 2. If the government moves in. In the OE, little in terms of services, except maybe in Alexandria, Aleppo and Smyrna. The rest has to be explained by the presence of the government.

Hence unlike most of Europe before 1600, the bulk of urbanization in the OE was not driven by industrialization but political factors. It is not voluntary, it is a sort of feedback effect. Basically, put a king in a place, courtiers will arrive, they’ll require luxuries and palaces which will bring merchants and artisans, etc… That’s how a government brings people into town not through regulations.

Besides, the increasing size of industrial hubs usually goes along massive falls in transport costs! I can’t see them in the OE. Hence once more the quick growth of Istanbul and other Ottoman towns has little to do with increased productivity and economies of scale, unlike London for instance whose growth was tightly correlated with decreasing transaction costs.

I disagree. Urbanization in the Ottoman Empire had a great deal to with increased efficiency.

Here you have to take into account the very different character of rural areas in North-Western Europe and the Ottoman Empire. Particularly, the nomadic or semi-nomadic herders that were numerous in the Ottoman Empire but absent in North-Western Europe had an impact on urbanization patterns. The clusters of smallish cities in NW Europe developed out of the many regional hubs where local agricultural products were produced or gathered. The large amount of space required by herders in Ottoman provinces, combined with their ability to take their products to market on their own, meant that these regional hubs were fewer.

The presence of herders and their beasts of burden also meant that the cost to transport goods locally were, in fact, lower than would have been the case otherwise. This at least partially explains why Ottoman cities were able to exploit comparatively large hinterlands.

 

I've been having a read through some of Pamuk's articles. One thing I found interesting was his Consumer Price Index for Istanbul, compared with other cities (http://www.ata.boun.edu.tr/Faculty/Sevket%20Pamuk/publications/Pamuk,%20Sevket_Prices%20in%20the%20Ottoman%20Empire.pdf - not sure if this is the same as the one you summarized). Although the Ottoman currency fluctuated quite a bit, the price of goods expressed in silver appears to have been remarkably stable from the 15th to the 19th century - more stable than in comparable European cities. If Ottoman cities were growing due purely to government bloating, and there was no attendant increase in efficiency and transport capacity, wouldn't the expectation be that products balloon in price?

Originally posted by Maharbbal

The sultans found enough wood to build hundreds of galleys,

Which wasn't the same thing as building top quality sailing ships. Smaller ships with shorter masts and smaller hulls could be made with lower quality wood.

Besides, military necessity has often forced governments to do things that make no economic sense, and I would expect that the rebuilding of the fleet in 1572 was one of those things.

Back to Top
Maharbbal View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 08-Mar-2006
Location: Paris
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2120
  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2009 at 09:18
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

The Ottomans did charter foreign ships to transport goods within the empire (by the 18th century, for more than half of the domestic trade, according to your Panzac article) - so it would seem there wasn't enough shipping available domestically.

... or that they had the resources to build ships, just not the market... I would go for this one, indeed Greek shipping grew handsomely after the independence if I am not mistaking, they were not held back by any of the edowment that prevented the rise of Turkish shipping.

Your point on the nomads is a very good one, indeed I hadn't considered the increase in catchment area it implied. But 1/ not the whole of the Ottoman empire was crisscrossed by nomadic herders small and medium towns don't appear to be really more common in Egypt, Algeria, or western Anatolia and 2/ herding has a very low productivity, meaning little surpluses, meaning little chances for cities to develop. Ottoman cities may have commanded very large hinterlands but not necessarily very large production. Now granted, they did not create herders, but they did not help much  for them to settle down.

Regarding the price series of S. Pamuk, Istanbul's curve is close to the ones of Amsterdam, Vienna and Warsaw, which is fairly surprising considering that Vienna was a large administrative center and an important market for eastern European good travelling westward, Warsaw was a small administrative center and Amsterdam was a financial hub. No clear trend here. So it may be said that Istanbul did not differ a lot from other European cities... or it may not mean much (you should consider real wages instead).

In theory, stagnating prices are not a good thing, it means that purchasing power does not evolve. For instance, food now is more expensive that when my grand father was my age, but unlike my grand father I can buy a car so really I don't care if tomatoes are worth ten times the amount of silver compared to 1950. There's a reason why central bankers like (a moderate) inflation.

Besides, please bear in mind that this series represents a 50 years average, lttle chance for yearly variations let alone seasonal ones to show. We can assume that if a problem arose at some point it would be fixed within ten years (if anything by outmigration). But precisely, it is that variability that matters the most, if you earn let say $1 a day, if the bread is at 10 cents for ten months and 99.9 cents for eight weeks, you'll still consider that it was a pretty bad year, enven though the average bread price was only around 24 cents.

Ultimately, the Ottoman empire suffered from its very success. It was much too big. I am convinced that one of Europe's success most important cause was the ability of a given country to pick it up when the previous leader grew exhausted. Take the example of finance, it shifted from Venice to Genoa, to Bruges, to Nuremberg to Antwerp, to Troyes, to Amsterdam to Florence to London (not in this order). Not sure this series of shift could have happened in the OE, thus at one point the development of the sector would have been stucked.
The same applies for the maritime trade, many ports in the OE had a brilliant maritime history but for five centuries none managed to take off! Indeed, if Portugal had bad institutions, Holland would not be affected, whereas bad institutions in Istanbul would affect Alexandria as well.
I am a free donkey!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 234

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.063 seconds.