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Topic ClosedThe Slavic element in Homer's epics

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Slavic element in Homer's epics
    Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 17:58
Originally posted by Heliocles

<<They can be easily compared to modern Cyrillic and the similarity is amazing:>>

But Cyrillic script is a byzantine gift to the slavs, a corrupted Greek alphabet that is. This is known to everyone, it is not my conspiracy theory. Its name says it, Cyrillic script.



Byzantine gift! Well, that must be true for the Glagollic! However it was the Macedonian Slav-speaking Solunians who promoted it. At least that is what the first Slavic text "The Life of Methodius" says, written by himself.

http://books.google.com/books?id=YIAYMNOOe0YC&pg=RA3-PA120&lpg=RA3-PA120&dq=thessalonians+speak+pure+slavic&source=web&ots=lZ3lGXjv6H&sig=yWzEITPmkKegfk8iCG4184vZ6Rw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

A corrupted Greek alphabet! What a daring! When we consider the fact that the Greek is a corrupted Phoenician alphabet, which was imported from the Mycenaean alphabet, and bears a striking similarity to the Vinca script, than we might say that the Cyrillic is a revived ancient Macedonian script, while the Greek alphabet is the corrupted. Do you agree? Cool

The brothers Kiril and Metodi were Macedonians, natives of Solun, who were acclaimed as the apostles of the Southern Slavs and the fathers of Slav literary culture. Kiril, the younger of the two, was given the name Constantine when he was baptized. It was much later when he received the name Kiril.

For godshake... what is the oldest script found classified as Slavic...? And what is the oldest Greek one? Unhappy


SCRIPTS! If we are talking about scripts than the Vinca would be the oldest, and according to archeology it is considered as proto-Slavic by some.

The Old European Script (also known as the Vinča alphabet, Vinča script or Vinča-Tordos script) is a name sometimes given to the markings on prehistoric artefacts found in south-eastern Europe. Some believe the markings to be a writing system of the Vinča culture, which inhabited the region around 6000-4000 BC.

http://www.indopedia.org/Old_European_Script.html

"An altogether odder controversy concerns the theories of Dr. Radivoje Pešić from Belgrade. In his book The Vinča Alphabet, he proposes that all of the symbols exist in the Etruscan alphabet, and conversely, that all Etruscan letters are found among Vinča signs. However, these claims are not taken seriously by scholars, who demonstrate that the Etruscan alphabet is derived from the West Greek Alphabet, which in turn is derived from the Phoenician writing system. This is however not completely incompatible with Pešić's views as he claims that Phoenician writing system descended from Vinčan. Pešić's critics have claimed that his support for the continuity theory, which claims a Slavic presence in the Balkans far earlier than the usually accepted date, is motivated by a nationalistic agenda; hence, for instance, his claim that the poet Homer must have spoken a Slavonic dialect (Pešić, 1989)."

To the Aryan model this would sound nationalistic. Since according to Martin Bernal, "The ARYAN MODEL started with the Hellenophily of the mid-eighteenth century. Formulated first by a German professor, Otfried Müller, at Göttingen in the 1820s, in its earlier or 'broad' form, it denied the truth of the Egyptian settlements and questioned those of the Phoenicians. The 'extreme' Aryan Model, which flourished during the twin peaks of antisemitism in the 1890's and again in the 1920’s and 1930’s, denied even the Phoenician cultural influence. This is the racist white Athena."

So how can one call Pešić's views nationalistic, for simply providing evidence for the factual truth that the proto-Europeans were slav-Speaking, when in fact those who invented the Aryan model, which is based on the Greek "divine race", and caused much damage in the last century, was the model we can call racist in the slightest?

To this I would add, Florin Curta's The Making of the Slavs where he states:

"The Slavs did not migrate from the Pripet marshes because of hostile environmental conditions. Nor did they develop forms of social organization
enabling them to cope with such conditions and presumably based on cooperation and social equality (zadruga)."

"As suggested in Chapter 3, the Sclavene ethnicity is likely to have been an invention of Byzantine authors, despite the possibility, which is often stressed by linguistically minded historians, that the name itself was derived from the self-designation of an ethnic group. It is interesting to note that this ethnic name (slovene) appeared much later and only on the periphery of the Slavic linguistic area, at the interface with linguistically different groups. Was language, then, as Soviet ethnographers had it, the “precondition for the rise of ethnic communities”? In the case of the Slavic ethnie, the answer must be negative, for a variety of reasons."

To this I would add the Russian academy's final statement on Slavic migrations:

"St. Petersburg, May 13 (MIA) - The Russians and other Slavs didn't migrate from the north to the south, instead they originated from the south and moved to the north, claimed Russian academician Valery Chudinov, who takes part at the first intenational congress titled "Pre-Cyrillic Literacy and Pre-Christian Culture among Slavs", being held in Pushkin near St. Petersburg, Russia."

http://www.mia.com.mk/portal/page?_pageid=113,166290&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL&VestID=44953631&prikaz=24&cat=6

Knowing that the Greek alphabet derived from the Phoenician which according to Pešić was imported from the Vinca culture, which is much older than all, and having in mind that the Glagollic was the one that was based on the Greek alphabet, while the Cyrillic was promoted by the students of Cyril and Methodius, obviously based on a much older script (the Vinca script), which was in secret use, due to its pagan origins, then I understand the irony of time that puts you in a situation to ridicule yourself in such a manner Heliocles.

I feel sorry for you. Wacko



Edited by Petro Invictus - 19-Jun-2008 at 18:04


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 18:50

I feel sorry for you.

What makes you think that i care about your personal thoughts?

 
About odos or oinos i am really bored stating the obvious. Good dictionaries are on the bookselves and academic databases are out there on the net.  Any of the (many serious) fellow forumers can check by himself and see.... 

 

 
Synthesizing was the process applied in Katharevousa, mate.

So before kathareuousa, say in the middle age Byzantium, Latinocracy or Ottoman Empire synthetic words were not used in demotic Greek.... Thats a good one. You are clearly dont have a clue about what kathareuousa is. 

 

 
While the language of the people mostly consisted of simple sentences, Katharevousa often applied ancient Greek Syntax to form sentences which would appear as educated speech, that is, long and complex.

General John Makrygiannis, Hero of the Greek Revolution, a commoner, totally illiterate, a hard mountain warrior.

http://hellas.teipir.gr/Thesis/Thesaurus%20of%20the%20Greek%20Language/greek/Makrig.html

http://www.scribd.com/doc/524390/-

 
He learned how to write in his late age. He wrote his memoirs in demotic Greek, the language the commoners spoke. The memoirs survive in the original handwritting.

Small Fragment:

<<Αδελφοί αναγνώστες!

Επειδή έλαβα αυτείνη την αδυναμία να σας βαρύνω με την αμάθειά μου (αν έβγουν εις φως αυτά οπού σημειώνω εδώ και ξηγώμαι πότε με κόλλησε αυτείνη η ιδέα, -από τα 1829, Φλεβαρίου 26, εις το 'Αργος- και ακολουθώ αγώνες και άλλα περιστατικά της πατρίδος) σας λέγω, αν δεν τα διαβάσετε όλα, δεν έχει το δικαίωμα κανένας από τους αναγνώστες να φέρη γνώμη ούτε υπέρ, ούτε κατά.

'Οτι είμαι αγράμματος και δεν μπορώ να βαστήσω ταχτική σειρά 'σ τα γραφόμενα, και... τότε φωτίζεται και ο αναγνώστης. Μπαίνοντας εις αυτό το έργον και ακολουθώντας να γράφω δυστυχήματα αναντίον της πατρίδος και θρησκείας, οπού της προξενήθηκαν από την ανοησίαν μας και 'διοτέλειά μας και από θρησκευτικούς και από πολιτικούς και από 'μάς τους στρατιωτικούς, αγαναχτώντας και εγώ απ' ούλα αυτά, ότι ζημιώσαμε την πατρίδα μας πολύ και χάθηκαν και χάνονται τόσοι αθώοι άνθρωποι, σημειώνω τα λάθη ολωνών και φτάνω ως την σήμερον, οπού δεν θυσιάζομε ποτές αρετή και πατριωτισμόν και είμαστε σε τούτην την άθλια κατάστασιν και κιντυνεύομεν να χαθούμεν.

Γράφοντας αυτά τα αίτια και τις περίστασες, οπού φέραμεν τον όλεθρον της πατρίδας μας όλοι μας, τότε ως έχοντας και εγώ μερίδιον εις αυτείνη την πατρίδα και κοινωνία, γράφω με πολλή αγανάχτησιν αναντίον των αιτίων, όχι να 'χω καμμιά ιδιαίτερη κακία αναντίον τους, αλλά ο ζήλος της πατρίδος μου δίνει αυτείνη την αγανάχτησιν και δεν μπόρεσα να γράψω γλυκώτερα. Αυτό το χειρόγραφον, από την περίστασιν οπού μου έγιναν πολλές καταδρομές, το είχα κρυμμένο. Τώρα οπού το έβγαλα, το διάβασα όλο και έγραψα ως τα 1850 Απρίλη μήνα, και διαβάζοντάς το είδα ότι δεν ξηγώμαι γλυκώτερα δια κάθε άτομον.>>

 
So... you reckon there are not any synthetic words in his demotic text? Demotic is a language of simple sentences? Tell me, tell me oh great "linguist"!

 

The Makrygiannis memoirs is considered a masterpiece of demotic literature. George Seferis (1963 nobel prize for Literature: "for his eminent lyrical writing, inspired by a deep feeling for the Hellenic world of culture.") http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/1963/press.html

considered Makrygiannis memoirs as a monumental work, a proof of demotic's capability of carrying the heavy Greek literature past into the 19th century (which it did, considering the international recognition of modern era Greek scholars such as Seferis (Nobel prize), Ellytis (Nobel prize), Papadiamantis, Palamas etc).

 

 

 

Pay attention to the source you post. Track the phrases in Green.

http://www.indopedia.org/Old_European_Script.html

Controversial issues

The Vinča markings have not attracted as much linguistic attention as recognized but undeciphered scripts such as Crete's Linear A and Easter Island's Rongorongo. However, the Vinča material has still managed to stir some controversies of its own.

The primary advocate of the idea that the markings represent writing, and the person who coined the name "Old European Script", was Marija Gimbutas (1921-1994), an important 20th century archaeologist and premier advocate of the notion that the Kurgan culture of Central Asia was an early Indo-European culture. Later in life she turned her attention to the reconstruction of a hypothetical pre-Indo-European Old European culture, which she thought spanned most of Europe. She observed that neolithic European iconography was predominately female — a trend also visible in the inscribed figurines of the Vinča culture — and concluded the existence of a matriarchal culture that worshipped a universal Mother Goddess. She also incorporated the Vinča markings into her model of Old Europe, claiming them to be the writing system for a hypothetical Old European language. Most archaeologists and linguists disagree with Gimbutas' interpretation of the Vinča signs as a script: it is all but universally accepted among scholars that the Sumerian cuneiform script is in fact the earliest form of writing.

An altogether odder controversy concerns the theories of Dr. Radivoje Pešić from Belgrade. In his book The Vinča Alphabet, he proposes that all of the symbols exist in the Etruscan alphabet, and conversely, that all Etruscan letters are found among Vinča signs. However, these claims are not taken seriously by scholars, who demonstrate that the Etruscan alphabet is derived from the West Greek Alphabet, which in turn is derived from the Phoenician writing system. This is however not completely incompatible with Pešić's views as he claims that Phoenician writing system descended from Vinčan. Pešić's critics have claimed that his support for the continuity theory, which claims a Slavic presence in the Balkans far earlier than the usually accepted date, is motivated by a nationalistic agenda; hence, for instance, his claim that the poet Homer must have spoken a Slavonic dialect (Pešić, 1989).

 

See also

Writing

Alphabet

Decipherment

List of undeciphered languages

Vinča culture

Mother Goddess

Continuity theory

Pseudoarchaeology

References

Pešić, Radivoje, The Vincha Script (ISBN 86-7540-006-3)

Pešić, Radivoje, "On the Scent of Slavic Autochthony in the Balkans (http://pub37.ezboard.com/fistorijabalkanafrm28.showMessage?topicID=11.topic)," Macedonian Review 19, nos. 2-3 (1989), 115-116

Gimbutas, Marija. 1974. The Gods and Goddesses of Old Europe 7000 - 3500 BC, Mythos, Legends and Cult Images

Winn, Milton McChesney. 1973. The signs of the Vinča Culture : an internal analysis : their role, chronology and independence from Mesopotamia

Winn, Shan M.M. 1981. Pre-writing in Southeastern Europe: the sign system of the Vinča culture, ca. 4000 B.C

-----------------------------------------------
 
 
 
Is this me or is this just so funny?
 
 
 
P.S.
Read carefully (really carefully) this.... it suits your case more than fine!


Edited by Heliocles - 19-Jun-2008 at 19:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 19:07
A lesson for you Petro and your kin on how you aproach ancient script research.
 
 
 
Lets see the case of Derveni Papyrus.
 
 
 
Derveni Papyrus symposium - JuLy 2008
The CHS will be hosting a three-day symposium on the Derveni Papyrus, from Monday, July 7th, to Wednesday, July 9th, 2008. In light of the recent publication of the edition by Theokritos Kouremenos, George M. Parassoglou, and Kyriakos Tsantsanoglou (Florence, Olschki, 2006), this symposium will be an opportunity to gather scholars who in the course of the past decades have been working on this text in order to address a set of issues relating to the edition and integration of the papyrus, its translation, and its interpretation. Albert Henrichs (Harvard University), Francesca Schironi (Harvard University), and Gregory Nagy (Harvard University and Center for Hellenic Studies) will host the conference.

Invitations were extended to a number of leading classicists who have worked on the Derveni papyrus, and here is a list of those who have accepted:
 
Adalberto Bernabé (Universidad Complutense, Madrid)
Anton Bierl (University of Basel)
Claude Calame (Ecole des Hautes Etudes en Sciences Sociales, Paris)
Fritz Graf (The Ohio State University)
Richard Hunter (Trinity College, University of Cambridge, UK)
Sarah Iles Johnston (The Ohio State University)
Charles Kahn (University of Pennsylvania)
Theokritos Kouremenos (Aristotle University of Thessaloniki)
Franco Montanari (Università degli Studi di Genova)
Glenn Most (Scuola Normale Superiore di Pisa and University of Chicago)
Davide Muratore (Cuneo, Italy)
Dirk Obbink (Christ Church, University of Oxford, UK)
Ioanna Papadopoulou (Université Libre de Bruxelles)
Antonios Rengakos (Aristotle University of Thessaloniki)
Jeffrey Rusten (Cornell University)
David Sider (New York University)
Evina Sistakou (Aristotle University of Thessaloniki)
Kyriakos Tsantsanoglou (Aristotle University of Thessaloniki)
Yannis Tzifopoulos (Aristotle University of Thessaloniki)   
Dimitrios Yatromanolakis (Johns Hopkins University)
 
 
 
No emotions, no controversy, no irrational claims, no pseudohistory/pseudoarchaelogy...
Just pure facts, logic and high standard academic debate.Wink
The exact opposite of your "historians"... the laughing stock of academic community.
 


Edited by Heliocles - 19-Jun-2008 at 19:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 20:06
My last post to this forum:

Hellenism - FACT or FICTION

 

It is well known that the ancient Greeks were the oldest civilization in the world; that they were the "cradle of democracy"; that they conquered Asia with Alexander the Great, and imposed their culture to the rest of the world; that they wrote the Bible and spread Christianity, and founded Byzantium; and moreover, that they gave the Slavic world their literacy, and thus deserve as special status in the global community as a "holy" nation!

In this essay I am going to expose the incorrect reading of the history of Greece, since it is a misconception that developed only in the recent times, ever since the nation building processes started shaping the modern societies of Europe.

Apparently prior to the French revolution, and as Albert Kahn's photos reveal, even after it, most of the population of Europe was ethnically diverse and originating from various ethnic groups that have survived a series of reigns in the past, which were (most of the time) exploratory to the common people, and new systems were at the brink of expansion, that would allow more liberties to the people in general! These liberties in time turned out to be a very cunning way of manipulating huge portions of the European population, within national framework, to drive a consuming society forward! The Kings of the past got replaced with the governments of the present and the corporations that sponsor them!

The nation building processes started as a natural result of the Industrial revolution, since it was necessary for the industrialists to create consuming societies that would have the right to a free choice of the products offered at the free market, as opposed to the totalitarian societies ruled and governed by autocrats such as the monarchs or the church!

The new corporations that started developing in the modern era needed the people to choose what they wanted to buy, and to have the capacity to buy it, therefore the human rights movements, and the libertarian approach! If the industrialists and the corporations had relied on autocratic mediators to sell their goods, then the profits would have been limited and the development of the free markets a fiction! Therefore, in order to create the free market, free people were supposed to be created, thus the nation building processes were put in action! This created nations that desired conformity and material commodities that would derive from the industrial progress and at the same time determine the development of consumerism, depending on the needs and requirements of the various consumers! This on the other hand, created marketing as a form of persuasion of the consumers what was best for their comfortable lives, and thus psychology took a major role in determining what was to be sold, and how!!! But let us not go there!

Our purpose is to shed light on the processes that shaped Europe in the last centuries, say the 19th and the 20th which was the time when most of the nations in Europe got its full exposure, based on common roots of courses, however, applying various criteria! When the processes reached the Balkans, these criteria changed drastically in the process of shaping the nations of the region, to suit the strategic interests of the Great Powers, or those nations who have already managed to create ground for the development of "free markets" within their societies, and needed expansion to survive! The Balkans was way behind in this regards, say in the 19th century! It still is!!!

Now, in this regard, the Ottoman Empire (Turkey) was the major obstacle to the new economical powers that needed expansion, and even though within Europe there were discrepancies between the old and new capitalistic societies, which resulted in the two World Wars to settle things straight, Turkey was a common enemy to all sides. So all the eyes of Europe turned to the Ottoman Empire!

Now, to the freedom fighters of the European societies, who were mostly literary workers, such as Lord Byron and many other Philhellenes, the vision of "democracy", which resulted from the rediscovery of the "ancient Greek values" during the Renaissance, represented the driving force behind all libertarian movements in the west. This suited the policy of the Great Powers, moreover, it suited the corporations that sponsored the governments of the western countries, and the vision of "democracy" represented the main reason why Greece became the primal point of interest to tackle with the Ottoman Empire!

Apparently, the "cradle of modern democracy" was suffering slavery and humiliation by a non-European race, such was the Ottoman, and this had raised all the sympathies of the European intellectuals, that later helped Greece gain its independence and create its modern nation from the "departed worth" of what has remained from the ancients, so cherished in the minds and literary works of the westerners!

People like Byron visited Greece during its Ottoman slavery, and their reports affected the European societies to a great extent, that they decided to take actions against the Ottomans and liberate the "cradle of their democratic dreams", which later turned into a nightmare for the region, since it was misconceptions, not truths, that shaped the European visions, and it was consumerism, not human liberties, that was the driving force behind the matter.

Let me clarify!

"Byron had first visited Greece while still a Cambridge undergraduate and had witnessed the “sad relic” of a great civilization now under the “long, accustomed bondage” of the Ottoman Empire. He was saddened by what he viewed as the Greeks’ passive acceptance of their bondage. With prophetic foresight, Childe Harold stirs the docile Greeks to action. Thirteen years later, in 1821, the Greek Revolt against the Turks began, the very first shots ringing in Byron’s ears as a call to arms.

Now in his mid-thirties, he was seduced by the idea of liberating the ancient nation that was the very cradle of the civilization that had nurtured him. He would lead the “scattered children forth;” he would “resume the gallant spirit” of the Spartan warriors of Thermopylae; he would call Greece “from the tomb.” In July 1823, he sailed to Greece to perform the short fifth act of his drama.

It soon became clear to Byron why the Greek Revolt had gotten off to such a pitiful start. The unflattering reports he’d heard about military incompetence and the lack of a coherent nationalist ideology were, alas, well founded.

Driven like a proverbial Spartan, Byron worked tirelessly to instill military discipline and to inspire patriotic fervor, both with some degree of success. His status as a National Hero of modern Greece is well earned..."

http://www.richardnathan.com/walk/byron.html

This gradually led to the Greek War of Independence and the creation of the modern Greek nation on the ashes of the population that barely spoke Greek, and was more Asiatic than European, when Byron first came to tell them who they were!!!

"The Greek War of Independence (1821–1829), also commonly known as the Greek Revolution (Greek: Ελληνική Επανάσταση Elliniki Epanastasi; Ottoman Turkish: يونان عصياني Yunan İsyanı), was a successful war waged by the Greeks to win independence for Greece from the Ottoman Empire.

After a long and bloody struggle, and with the aid of the Great Powers, independence was finally granted by the Treaty of Constantinople in July 1832. The Greeks were thus the first of the Ottoman Empire's subject peoples to secure recognition as an independent sovereign power."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence

This is the moment of the idiocy, which was instilled by the deluded European minds with a lack of knowledge for the reality of the matters in the Balkans, which caused a series of atrocities and conflicts that are still not resolved even in modern times, and damaged most of the nations in the Balkans as a direct result of the policies driven by the demands of the Great Powers and their industrial consumerism!

This is what General Makriyannis, said in his Memoirs, regarding the Independence of Greece:

"Today the fatherland is reborn, that for so long was lost and extinguished. Today are raised from the dead the fighters, political, religious, as well as military, for our King has come, that we begat with the power of God. Praised be your most virtuous name, omnipotent and most merciful Lord. ”

Now, an interesting notion is that the King in Greece was also an import from the west.

"The Kingdom of Greece (Greek: Βασίλειον τς λλάδος, Vasíleion tīs Elládos) was a state established in 1832 in the Convention of London by the Great Powers (the United Kingdom, France and the Russian Empire)."

"At the London Conference of 1832, Great Britain, France and Russia (the Great Powers at the time) offered the Greek throne to the 17-year-old Bavarian Prince Otto of the ruling House of Wittelsbach, who became the first King of Greece."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Greece

Now, the aftermath of this fiasco was the following:

"The consequences of the Greek revolution were somewhat ambiguous in the immediate aftermath. An independent Greek state had been established, but with Britain, Russia and France claiming a major role in Greek politics, an imported Barvarian dynast as ruler, and a mercenary army.[28] The country had been ravaged by ten years of fighting, was full of displaced refugees and empty Turkish estates, necessitating a series of land reforms over several decades.[3]

The new state also contained 800,000 people, fewer than one third of the two and a half million Greek inhabitants of the Ottoman Empire and for much of the next century the Greek state was to seek the liberation of the “unredeemed” Greeks of the Ottoman Empire, in accordance with the Megale Idea, the goal of uniting all Greeks in one country."

"The newly established Greek state would become a springboard for further expansion, and over the course of a century Macedonia, Crete, Epirus, the Aegean and other parts of Greece would throw off the Turkish yoke and unite with the new Greek state."

Now, being aware of the western romantic dream, which created their nation as the "cradle of modern democracy", the modern Greeks made up of mixed ethnic groups, started spreading their Megale Idea, in strengthening their national identity thus creating a coherent body for further territorial expansion, and consequently domination in the region! Again this was done in negotiation with the interests of the Great Powers in the region, regarding the Big Game!

Thus, the Greek intellectuals started reviving the ancient values, to that extent that they introduced a new form of a Greek language, known as Katharevousa to clean the otherwise Turkish Greek and approximate it to the language of the ancients, which was doomed to be a total failure.

It was this time when the modern Greeks started learning about the ancient times, from the western scholars of the 19th century and developed a propaganda, abusing historical records about all those ethnic groups who populated the territory of Greece in the past, to which they attached the term "Greek" or "Hellenic", a practice that even today shapes the policy of the modern "democratic" state of Greece.

I use "democratic" in parenthesis, because even in the ancient times and today it is a misunderstood concept that needs to be clarified.

In the ancient times, Greeks developed democracy as the rule of the demos, the privileged citizens of the city-states, excluding the slaves, and women in most of the parts! Greek democracy was pretty much discriminatory in the past as it is today, and some of the concepts of human rights that we recognize as democratic values today, such as minority rights and gender equity, were and still are unknown to the Greek mind!

Greeks of modern age have been an ethnocentric nation basing its policy on "the supremacy of their race", that has always brought them closer to the radical rightists, rather than the moderate democratic options of the modern multicultural societies!

Hellenism has become the common agenda for all the supporters of the Megale Idea, a practice that is still undermining the democratic processes of the country!

This Megale Idea encompasses the falsifying of history to which the term "Greek" or "Hellenic" got attached to everything that preceded the modern nation's existence, based not on ETHNIC grounds, but purely LINGUISTIC!

This relies on the fact that the Hellenic script and language, more or less, has been used by many peoples before the modern Greeks were created, as a civilizational language, or better say Lingua Franca for most of the Mediterranean cultures, ever since the classical times!

Today, archeology points at yet new moments in the study of the demography of the Balkans, including the origins of cultures, languages and ethnic groups!

For example, there are many words in Homer's work that share similar roots with some Slavic words, as used in modern Slavic languages! There is the recent discovery with the Demotic text from the Rosetta stone, that reveals a proto-Slavic language in use by the ancient Macedonians, even evidence that the Mycenaean and Minoan civilizations were more closely related to the ancient Macedonians, rather than those we call modern Greeks, and were linguistically closer to the Slavic substratum! Moreover, the archaeological evidence, as presented in the study by Florin Curta, The Making of the Slavs, reveals the fact that the Slavic migrations was an inventions of Byzantine writers, and a theory abused by the policy makers of the past era!

In this light, the Hellenistic approach to all these areas of scientific research sounds rather ridiculous, particularly when we take into consideration that the modern Greek nation was created from the "departed worth" of the various ethnic remains from the Byzantine era, very much distant from the ancient people who used the Hellenic script and the various dialects such as the Attic, Doric, Ionic, or later on Alexandrian, as a language of commerce, and a Lingua Franca among the various ethnic tribes.

Just observe how idiotic some theories sound in the light of the knowledge that the 19th century scholars had about demography, ethnography, linguistics and economics!

"During the Archaic period, the population of Greece GREW BEYOND the capacity of its limited arable land (according to one estimate, the population of Ancient Greece increased by a factor larger than TEN during the period from 800 BC to 400 BC, increasing from a population of 800,000 to a total estimated population of 10 to 13 million)."

Now I wonder, if a population can increase TEN times in a period of 400 years, than Greece must have been a BREEDING ground for RABBITS! Isn't it more logical to say that the populations from other regions adopted the Greek script and language, while they preserved their ethnically diverse character!

A comparison: if some archaeologists of the future say, in 3400 AD, dig out evidence that would prove that the English language spread dramatically from only a patch of land in Europe, say England, to America and then to the rest of the world, in a time span of merely 500 years, say from 1492 to 2008, should we assume that the English population "GREW BEYOND the capacity of its limited arable land" and by the 21st century all the globe was populated by English?!?!?! Absurd to the bone, isn't it!?!


"From about 750 BC the Greeks began 250 years of expansion, settling colonies in all directions. To the east, the Aegean coast of Asia Minor was colonized first, followed by Cyprus and the coasts of Thrace, the Sea of Marmara and south coast of the Black Sea. Eventually Greek colonization reached as far north-east as present day Ukraine and Russia (Taganrog). To the west the coasts of Illyria, Sicily and Southern Italy were settled, followed by Southern France, Corsica, and even northeastern Spain. Greek colonies were also founded in Egypt and Libya. Modern Syracuse, Naples, Marseille and Istanbul had their beginnings as the Greek colonies Syracusae (Συρακούσαι), Neapolis (Νεάπολις), Massalia (Μασσαλία) and Byzantion (Βυζάντιον). These colonies played an important role in the spread of Greek influence throughout Europe, and also aided in the establishment of long-distance trading networks between the Greek city-states, boosting the economy of ancient Greece."

It is not a mistake to assume that these were people who used the Greek script and language, or better say dialects of Attic, Doric, or even used the script with their own language, but to claim that the population of Greece GREW and FLOODED the ancient world is merely as stupid as to say that all of us today are ENGLISH, simply because we use their language!

This brings us to a conclusion that the language we call "Greek" today, must have been considered as a civilizational language in the ancient times, without any particular belonging to a single nation! The nation building processes started much later, in the modern era, and the newly created Greek nation simply adopted, or better say confiscated the heritage of the Mediterranean world from the ancient times, thus taking the Lingua Franca of the past, as the national language for the modern Greek nation, which is ethnically so diverse, that if they acknowledge the minorities within its state, there wouldn't be a Greek citizen in Greece whatsoever!

Greece is facing a major change in mentality and we all need to be very patient! Since it is going to influence its national identity and its core principles of existing as a single body! This would gradually affect the economy of the state, and the national coherence as provided by Byron would perish into history! However, evolution would set off in a right direction for many young Greeks! And that is a positive outcome of the whole matter!!!




...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 20:46

A post totally irelevant with the thread....

 
But at least now you clearly show your nationalistic anti-Greek menace, which is the driving force that urges you to accept unconditionally controversial (at the best case..) theories.
 

So it is even more obvious now that your posting mission was not historical debate, but pure political propaganda.

 
Anyway your last post is uncreative text-book anti-Greekism. We have heard that already, we dont care (us the big bad undemocratic Greeks! LOL)

 

 
Ah.. speaking of democracy... (Mods excuse me but...)

http://www.osce.org/documents/odihr/2008/06/31729_en.pdf

http://www.osce.org/odihr/item_1_31728.html

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-06/03/content_8303331.htm

http://euobserver.com/15/26262

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-06/01/content_8296291.htm

http://www.voanews.com/english/2008-06-02-voa41.cfm

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,361681,00.html

 
We have a saying (a demotic one from those you like!Big%20smile):
 
"In the house of the hanged man, do not speak of ropes..."  Wink

 

 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 22:49
We're talking about real menace here...Damn...Ermm


Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2008 at 08:12
 
Only little about the language can be said from the few words that survive. A notable sound-law is that PIE voiced aspirates appear as voiced stops, written β, γ, δ, in contrast to all known Greek dialects, which have unvoiced them, φ, χ, θ.
  • Macedonian danos (δάνος) ("death", from PIE *dhenh2- "to leave"), compared to Greek thanatos (θάνατος).
  • Macedonian abroutes (ἀβροῦτες) as opposed to Greek ophrus (ὀφρῦς) for eyebrows
  • Macedonian Berenikē (Βερενίκη) vs. Greek Pherenikē (Φερενίκη) "bearing victory"
  • adraia ἀδραία "bright weather", Attic αἰθρία, from PIE *aidh-
  • baskioi (βάσκιοι) "fasces", PIE *bhasko
  • According to Hdt. 7.73 (ca. 440 BC), the Macedonians claimed that the Phryges were called Brygoi before they migrated from Thrace to Anatolia (around 1200 BC).
  • mageiros μάγειρος "butcher" was a loan from Doric into Attic. Vittore Pisani has suggested an ultimately Macedonian origin for the word, which could then be cognate to makhaira

In which language does "Abru" mean "Eyebrow"? http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=abru+eyebrow

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2008 at 08:20
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

In which language does "Abru" mean "Eyebrow"? http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=abru+eyebrow


Counting cognates: lots.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2008 at 08:39
Please mention some of them, Macedonian abroutes, Old Persian abraut/agbraut (Modern Persian abru), Avestan bruuat, ?


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 20-Jun-2008 at 08:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2008 at 09:09
Swedish ögonbryn, English eyebrow, Norwegian öyebryn, German Augenbraue, Serbocroatian obrva, Polish berw, Russian bruf(Swedish transcription).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2008 at 11:02

Cyrus the info you present can be found more extensively in wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-0

 

Although i am not very fond on referencing directly wikipedia for such issues, i cannot deny that some of the external references provided there worth an attention.

 

Before one set to investigate the connection of Macedonian with other Greek dialects, he has to investigate firstly the connection between the other Greek dialects.

 

The various ancient Greek dialects present significant variations between them, but can still be classified in a wider lingustic net. Under this prism should the ancient Macedonian be examined if accuracy is the aim.

 

For example the same word with changed the first letter/s such as in the δανός - θανός pattern can be traced between other Greek dialects also.

According to Plutarch,Moralia Macedonians use 'b' instead of 'ph',while Delphians use 'b' in the place of 'p'.

 

GREEK QUESTIONS. - Plutarch, The Morals, vol. 2                 Check question 9.

http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=1212&chapter=91574&layout=html&Itemid=27

 

 

I think it would be a nice new thread, comparing the already classified Greek dialects between them. And there is a lot of them....

 

Wikipedia has a list with various classifications acconding to various scholars.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_dialects)

 

Northwestern, Southeastern Ernst Risch, Museum Helveticum (1955):

Northern Greek

Doric/North-Western Greek

Aeolic

Pamphylian?

Southern Greek

Ionic-Arcadian-Cyprian-Mycenaean

Alfred Heubeck:

Northwestern group

Doric/North-Western Greek

Aeolic?

Southeastern group

Ionic-Attic

Arcadocypriot

Western, Central, Eastern A. Thumb, E. Kieckers, Handbuch der griechischen Dialekte (1932):

Western Greek

Doric dialects

dialect of Achaia

dialect of Elis

North-Western Greek

Central Greek

Aeolic

Boiotic

Thessalic

Lesbian

Arcadocyprian

Eastern Greek

Ionic

Attic

Pamphylian

W. Porzig, Die Gliederung des indogermanischen Sprachgebiets (1954):

Western Greek

North-Western Greek

Doric

Aeolic

Eastern Greek

Ionic-Attic

Arcadocyprian

East Greek, West Greek C.D. Buck, The Greek Dialects (1955)[3]:

East Greek

The Attic-Ionic Group

Attic

Ionic

East Ionic

Central Ionic

West Ionic or Euboean

The Arcado-cyprian Group

Arcadian

Cyprian

Pamphylian

The Aeolic Group

Lesbian

Thessalian

Boeotian

West Greek

The NorthWest Greek Group

Phocian (including Delphian)

Locrian

Elean

The Northwest Greek koine

The Doric Group

Laconian and Heraclean

Messenian

Megarian

Corinthian

Argolic

Rhodian

Coan

Theran and Cyrenaean

Cretan

Sicilian Doric

 
 
I think there is lots of literature concerned with this matter, product of decades of academic debate.
 
 
So if someone wants to suggest if Macedonian had been Greek or not, he must do so by having in his mind the other analogies between the other Greek dialects.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2008 at 12:08
Petro strikes once more....I thought he had become tired of seeing his crazy theories get shot down again and again but he just took his time..the Ultranionalists strike back!!! R guess we will have to wait for the Return of Jedi (logic)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2008 at 12:31

And that takes care of that. Eight pages of less then sterling discussion. Even for the alternative history forum, thats enough.

 

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