Amerindian roots of the Americas

Originally posted by pinguin Originally posted by King John I was indeed in that thread. However my objections, in said thread, had to do with the fact that you were downplaying all European influences in the US, which is preposterous. No one ever said that Americans were free of Amerindian influences, they just pointed out that the influences that you were claiming for the Amerindians were more European than Amerindian. There are many sports team with Amerindians or Amerindian themes as Mascots. . Mascots aren't a good sympthom. Cleveland uses this. Just imagine that Cleveland used a mascot like this. Why it is not possible to offend that way African Americans but it is allowed with Indians surpasses me. That's not precisely what I mean for "honoring" the Amerindian Past. Originally posted by King John What Americans have denied any Amerindian heritage or ancestry. I have heard you deny people American status because their family hasn't been here for 100+ years. . Yes, I have. They are descendents of recent immigrants. So? Originally posted by King John When did you say that "Amerindian heritage is more important for Latin Americans than to Anglo Americans, and by far?" What you said here was that "The problem with the Americas is that, although is a favorite between specialists, the general public outside Latin America knows (or want to know) too little about it." That says nothing about Amerindian heritage being more important to Latin Americans than Other Americans. This is another chauvinistic view of yours, again if you want to talk about Chile that's fine but don't paint with such broad strokes. It is just what I observe looking to people like you, that reacted so fiercely when the very mention of some Amerindian heritage in Anglo America existed. You convinced me that in there nobody appreciated it. And now you are changing your mind. Please, fix your possition, because is impossible to shot such a moving target.

When have I reacted fiercely? In the thread that you are talking about you made claims that were easily refutable with common knowledge. Go back to that thread and read my responses. You cite the Cleveland Indians as an example of the American impression of the Amerindian Past however you say nothing about teams like the Seattle Seahawks which have stylized logos based on native american designs/style.   Here is the Seahawks' logo:

Or what about the Atlanta Braves' logo?


I agree that the Cleveland Indians' logo could be considered offensive. Are these two logos offensive? What about movies like Dances With Wolves, Last of the Mohicans, Geronimo: An American Legend, Drums Along the Mohawk (not all interactions were rosy), Little Big Man, etc.? What about works of Literature like, Last of the Mohicans? What about products and brands like Pontiac Cars, Winnebago RVs, Mohawk Carpets, etc., are these products/brands not honoring the Amerindian past of the USA? Shall we discuss the work of Bob Dylan, which one Emmanuel Desveaux connects with various Amerindian influences? Again you are showing your ignorance when you say that Americans (from the US) don't care about the Amerindian heritage of their land. That's just preposterous.

The point I was making about your comments concerning "real" Americans was that it was just as ridiculous as the comments your were making about Americans not knowing about Amerindians. Also that you arbitrarily chose a year mark which is not actually all that recent, especially when you take into account that the country itself is only 232 years old, even if you want to count from the first permanent European settlements the country is only some 480 years old. When we compare a family lineage that has been here since the end of the 19th century - beginning of the 20th century you are looking at a lineage that has been in the country for a little less than half of the country's existence. If you are going to look at it from the earliest permanent settlement then that same family has been here for almost a fifth of the country's history. This makes that lineage not recent immigrants. However the education system doesn't educate a family different if it's been here for 400 years or 40 years. If you worry about assimilation, the family that has been here for 100 years will be just as assimilated as the family that has been here 400. The family that has been here 40 years will have children who have been assimilated and those children will also have recently US born children who will grow up being assimilated. This means that the family who has been here 40 years is just as assimilated as the family who has been here 100 or 400 years.

To sum up it is ridiculous to say that Americans (people for the US) don't appreciate their country's past whether it be AMerindian or European. Nobody in the Amerindian Roots of America thread said that there were no Amerindian Influences in the US just that the European ones are/were greater. Not all logos are like the Cleveland Indians one, look at the representations of Amerindians in American media, there are many heritage cites that school children go to (for both school and day trips), look at state names and other topographical names - the Delaware river. Again nobody said that Americans don't take pride in the history of this land, but that history is shaped - in the past 400 years - by Europeans, that's a fact. The idea that Latin Americans care more about their Amerindian heritage than Americans is not only ridiculous it is chauvinistic. You have repeatedly shown yourself to not understand what you are talking about and to be a Latin American chauvinist.


PS: THis is a response to a post in the Africa's thread, since this was a side conversation not on point with the thread I decided to post it here.

Originally posted by pinguin This is what I believed you though, King John. As you can see, you gave me the impression the importance of Amerindians to Euroamericans like yourself was nill. After all, you made every effort in minimizing the legacy of Amerindians in the U.S. So I believed you.   Your own words:   Originally posted by King John (1)Even if it's 15 million people that is about 5% of the population that's not a big proportion of the population. The population of the US alone is 300 million so out of 300 million 15 million have Amerindian ancestry. 5% of the population having Amerindian ancestry is not a big percentage and certainly not enough to make any real impact. (2)That still leaves 70-75% as having no Amerindian ancestry. My paternal grandfather came to this country (USA) from Argentina in the late 1930's early 1940's. I am considered 1/4 Argentinean (hispanic) and I have no Amerindian ancestry. Not all Latinos/Hispanics have Amerindian ancestry. With that being said 25-30% of a population is considered a significant minority. (3)The more important thing about ancestry is who a person identifies him/herself, since this is how the person sees them self. This identity is more important than a genetical make up. Re your point about Argentineans. I know for a fact that I have no Amerindian blood in me since my grandfather was born in Pskorov, Ukraine and immigrated to Argentina before coming to the US (mind you he received Argentinean citizenship). (4)Pinguin, I asked about American mentality since you and another responder were discussing it. I will go point by point and evaluate this mentality's Amerindian influences. 1. Independence/Love of freedom is not just an Amerindian influence. Look at the wars fought between the Germans and the Romans or any other war when people were trying to conquer another people. Independence goes back more to America's European roots than it does to its Amerindian ones. The Maccabees used Guerrilla tactics were they showing an Amerindian influence? The Romans used the Fabian Strategy, which was a type of Guerilla tactic, during the Second Punic War.1* In the 15th Century the Vietnamese used guerilla warfare to be the Chinese.2 2. While an argument can be made for Amerindian influence here, it is much more likely that this is just another example of republicanism. The founding fathers of the USA were well versed in the writings of Machiavelli (the Discourses were what he really thought not the Prince) and Guicciardini. That is to say they were more influenced by the Florentine and Venetian forms of democracy then Iroquois. 3. War like attitude? Come on! If a warlike attitude was inherently Amerindian the entire world would be exhibiting Amerindian influences. This is human nature. If you look at the people that the founders of the US are descended from you will see that they too were warlike people. We name things after Vikings as well, and animals (A-10 Warthog, aka the Tank Buster), and Greek/Roman gods. This really proves nothing other than the fact that the US has a sense of its past not that it influences its mentality. 4. No outdoors activities anywhere else in the world? The English, Irish, Italians, Germans, Russians, Polish, and Scandinavians don't hunt or do outdoor activities? What about water skiing, skiing, cross country skiing, snow shoeing are these all inventions of Amerindians? In fact outdoor activities have always been a human trait not specific to one race, nation, or culture. 5. There are many place names and other words that are indeed derived from Amerindian languages, however they are vastly out numbered by the lexical contribution of European languages. How does this show an Amerindian impact on the American mentality? I will concede Corn to you (even though I can't stand eating it). Regarding your other food related items people were doing/manufacturing those types of things all over the world. 6. There are many literary, celluloid, musical, and other artistic motifs that are common through out the world. Take for instance the Norse god Loki, who is a trickster, there are many stories that are based around his tricks and deceits. If you examine these stories and compare them to stories from Africa and the Americas you will see that they are essentially the same. There is a book on this subject which I can't find right now but I will look for it while watching the Champion's League final today. Many movies and artistic endeavors are based on previous works like all the different adaptations of Othello, Romeo and Julliet, the Merchant of Venice, and Taming of the Shrew just to mention a few. In terms of movies yes there are very many with Amerindian in them but there are as many if not more based around WWII, Gangsters, UFOs and Aliens, Murder Mysteries, Literature (Ancient, Gothic, Romantic, Fantasy, Modern).   While there are Amerindian influences on the "American mentality" they are relatively minor. The six influences you set forth can easily be explained as European as well. You seem to be finding only what you are looking for and what you are finding seems to be very superficial. While I would agree that there is an American Mentality and it does include some of the things that you have touched upon, I disagree with the influences. American culture and mentality has been shaped more by Europeans than Amerindians.

Pinguin, if you actually read what I wrote you would see that at no time do I say that the importance of Amerindians to European Americans is nil. That is a supposition on your part. Please see the section of the above post in bold. That post was in response to what you call the American Mentality. You highlight six points that you say make up the American Mentality and claim that they are derived from Amerindians. The post which you quote above is a rebuttal illustrating the fact that the characteristics that you claim belonged solely to the Amerindians where in fact characteristics that are not inherently and solely Amerindian.

Points 1-3 say nothing about Amerindian influences on American culture.

Point 4 as you can see from the emboldened section of point 4 above, I don't dismiss the idea that Amerindians influenced American republicanism. I say specifically that there can be an argument made for Amerindian influences here.

You can see from the above quote that I have not said that there are no Amerindian influences, this is you projecting your preconceived notion of what White Americans think of Amerindians onto my post. I even admit at the end of the post (see the emboldened section at the beginning of the last paragraph) that there are influences from the Amerindians on American culture.

Well, fiercely, perhaps wasn't the propper term. Too strong term, perhaps, to qualify your attitude, Your arguments above (points 1. to 6) were PERCEIVED by me as very strong. Well, perhaps I was wrong.

I never said American culture was based in Amerindian culture either. What I said was that there was an Amerindian heritage in modern American culture, but never claimmed it was exclusive.

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Originally posted by pinguin   And the preservation of culture has to start from the very beginning of the founding of a country. That's why the aboriginal peoples are so important to have and preserve a national identity.   Why is that? Dismissing the last 20 or so years, Sweden has been ethnically homogenous for the last 3000 or so years. Culture has over time changed again and again, but we still have a national identity.

Originally posted by pinguin     Originally posted by Vorian     Then no for US and Canada and yes for Latin America   I don't know why you have such a binary attitude with respect to the topic.   Do you live in the Americas ?   Actually many Americans and Canadians do have Amerindian blood, more than, I believe, you think.   On the other hand, there are hundred of millions of European descendents in Latin America too, many of which still look European.

Edited by pebbles - 04-Mar-2009 at 11:56

Exactly!

Amerindian mentality had an interesting -and usually denied- influence in American mentality. Individualism and search for freedom, as you mentioned above. Lesser known is that Amerindians also influenced the way Americas fought against the British during the Independence wars. More interesting links can be found in folk traditions, particularly in foods; but in that you guys are the experts; not me.