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QuoteReplyTopic: when did muskets fully replace the Bow in Europe? Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 16:31
Omar has the physical picture. Medieval peasants, the tenants of the nobility who raised levies for war, worked at tough physical labor from their later childhood. But just anyone wasn't suitable for the longbow. The strongest were needed to make it effective.
I think the Assize specified that practice must be engaged in, but how often it was really done, who knows?
In regard to economic factors concerning firearms, one was demographic, the other technological:
After the Plague of the mid 14th c., there was a shortage of agricultural labor to work the land, worse in some places than others, and a recurrance of food shortages which led to weaker resistance to diseases, etc. Eating was more important than practicing archery, and although that hardly disappeared overnight, the change in economic realities and the gradual shift away from feudal models of social relationships caused, not the technology itself, but the serious look at its use.
Again it didn't happen quickly, but labor shortages in the 14th c. translated into some use of professional soldiers (not necessarily all nobility) to conduct conflicts. That became more expensive. Through the 15th c., as gunpowder technology developed, and as costs for war increased, the need to economize caused the further adoption of hand held firearms as those became more reliable.
Somewhere in that period, 1450-1500, it became economical enough to equip sizeable numbers of soldiers with firearms. The costs of workmanship to make the arquebus type weapon, and the chemical propellants became less than the other economic costs of long practice for numbers of longbowmen. Anyone could learn to use a firearm in a short time. Accuracy wasn't important. A very large number of soldiers didn't survive a campaign due to disease and exposure, etc. anyway, so go the cheaper route.
EDIT: I don't want to give the impression that the longbow was the only missile weapon in use before firearms became practical. Certainly in the later medieval period the crossbow was used, and the "archers" of the French and Burgundian Compagnies d' Ordinance were I believe, so armed.
The crossbow had been used by Roman troops in the late Empire, like 4th and 5th c. It seems to have disappeared after the mounted soldier in the West became paramount, but other bows were widely used in the East (Byzantine and other states).
My knowledge of the Eastern Empire and the others is pretty weak. Maybe all you Byzo's can fill us in regarding the evolution of the missile weapons there from the 4th c. on.
As far as the late medieval crossbow in Italy, Spain, France, etc., was that resurrected because of the Renaissance fascination with classical antiquity?
If armor could be pierced by masses of arrows launched at high angle, what happened when the labor shortages mentioned above caused a change in battlefield tactics (pikes; guns that could be moved around; light stradioti). The armor got heavier, and the mechanical advantage of the crossbow could impact that, but it was a much shorter range missile weapon. Doubtful that it was much faster to load than an arquebus. It certainly wasn't as fast as using a quiver of arrows.
Aparently a lot of it was actually due to taboo in it's early years rather than any kind of serious military effectiveness - for example, in the battle of Crecy, 1346, bombards were deployed by the English forces, and did have the effect of making the Genoese crossbowmen employed by the French to flee, but they did little in the way of hard tactics. When the firelock and matchlocks came in, they were gradually mixed in with bowmen who could provide rate of fire to the early musketer's power of fire. This practice continued until muskets became advanced to the point that they had both the range, rate and power aspects that were in some respects held by the bow more. Even in 1525, at the battle of Pavia, there were some longbowmen present, but that battle essentially showed to Europe the power of the now well-developed musket. The "flower of French chivalry" were blasted from their saddals, and even King Francis was captured after his guard was blasted away by a Spanish musket and pike formation.
Edit - sorry if this is a bit messy or spelt wrong - it was a drunken post at about 4 in the morning
Edited by Aster Thrax Eupator - 19-Apr-2008 at 10:56
Muskets were not seriously effective i.e. can stand alone until the napoleonic period i.e. 4-5 shot per minute the earlier versions such as thosed used in the civil war took upward of a minute to load and were cumbersome this would explain the continued use of longbows to a relitivly late time period even if they no longer had a pivitol role to play on the battlfeild as they were lighter, quicker to use and more acurate than muskets for a long period of time after thier conception
Muskets were not seriously effective i.e. can stand alone until the napoleonic period i.e. 4-5 shot per minute the earlier versions such as thosed used in the civil war took upward of a minute to load and were cumbersome this would explain the continued use of longbows to a relitivly late time period even if they no longer had a pivitol role to play on the battlfeild as they were lighter, quicker to use and more acurate than muskets for a long period of time after thier conception
Except the only ones with an option to even try to use longbows, or crossbows, on the battlefield after the 16th c. were the English. It's not generally regarded as a sign of rational decision, but rather one of a combination of ideology and technological lag in the British Isles.
In Europe the musket came into its own at the Battle of Pavia, 1525, when the fireing discipline of the Spanish musketeers was used to hammer the French cavalry, even ending with the French king being captured by these musketeers.
It assumed battlefield dominance with the invention of volley firing by Maurice of Nassau in the last decade of the 16th c.
I mean, outside Britain the Ottomans had a warrior-caste tradition of using bows, but ditched these at first opportunity to create musket-dominated warrior caste to replace them. In India the Mughals effectively used muskets to create a marked advantage over non-gunpowder armies. In Africa it worked just fine to sell local chiefs European muskets and ammo, and ask them to go make war on their neighbours to keep up the supply of slaves needed in the New World. Bows wasn't a match in any way, shape or form.
There's even a common historical term for the way in which the advent of muskets changed the nature of politics all over the world - "Gunpowder Empires". This includes the Iroquis League, and the Susquehannas who by virtue of wholesale adoption of firearms came to dominate the "Beaver Wars" (between native societies over beaver hunting ground, to be able to sell furs to the Europeans providing the guns) in North America beginning in the 1640's. Their bow-wielding adversaries were at a distinct disadvantage.
The Japanese got their hands on their first musekt in 1542. By 1576 progressive Japanese armies sported literally thousands of musketeers, and by that date, and ahead of Europe, developed volley firing as a battle-winning tactic. And it's not as if the Japanese can be accused of having a deficient archery-tradition. (Japanese armies unable to afford musekets tended to adopt archery tactics to mimic the effects of musket volleys even.)
The bottom line being, all over the world muskets worked beautifully as battle-winning weapons compared to the bows they replaced already in the 16th c.
my knoledge in this area is a little roppy put ap revious post said that they had to be combined with bows and others i.e. pikes at the time you were mentioing, alos heard tha during the english civil war i.e. 1640's to 50's it was critiziesed for being slow to load so based on this me statment of effectivness in the Napoleonic period was a guess, the stuff in the other post could be wrong though would be intrested if you knew anything about these critisisms becuase as I said my knoledge is sketchy
No it doesn't take half a day to train a longbowman.
I am not looking for the reason why the longbowmen in your video are compared to musketmen are so good, I am look for the longbowmen in your video are compared to musketmen are so bad.
1. I have seen the video. Most, if not all the shooters are NOT the same guys that the presenter trained earlier in the show. It is misleading.
2. The longbowmen did pretty bad. Many military history enthusiasts have been 'conditioned' to believe the musket was some kind of joke weapon. As soon as they see a longbow doing marginally well, they assume it must be much better than a musket.
3. TEST A MUSKET. I would assume most people would hit the horse at 100 yards the first time they shot at it with most 17th Century muskets. Many
of the disparaging statistics of musket accuracy are taken from the musket
being operated under combat conditions, which is not reflective of its
performance when compared to other weapons.
You don't have to read on, but here are some sources:
Many of the disparaging statistics of musket accuracy are
taken from the musket being operated under combat conditions, which is not
reflective of its performance when compared to other weapons.
The muskets (or early smooth bore firearm) accuracy gets
worse as we introduce human error:
We start from the first example where there is NO human
error.
“Studying the theoretical limits of arquebuses and muskets. The best recently
controlled study of early modern firearms was carried out in 1988-1989 by the
staff of the Steiermärkisches Landeszeughaus in Graz, Austria. Thirteen muskets
and pistols, dating from the sixteenth to the eighteenth century were chosen to
be fired under rigorous test conditions in a research program conducted jointly
with the Austrian armed forces. The guns were mounted on rigid frames, sighted
on target, ignited electrically, and measured electronically.
Muzzle velocities for the early modern weapons from the Graz
collection were surprisingly high. Ten of thirteen average muzzle velocities
were between 400 and 500 m/sec. By comparison, the two modern assault rifles
tested had muzzle velocities of 835 m/sec and 990 m/sec respectively, and the
9mm pistol tested at 360 m/sec, Smith and Wesson police .38 revolver at 290
m/sec, Colt .357 Magnum at 400 m/sec. Of course, the drag of the ball causes a
rapid loss of momentum with distance.
Muskets were targeted at 100 meters, pistols at 30 meters.
Weapons were fired against a rectangular wooden target 167 cm high by 30 cm
wide, essentially the frontal area of a standing human being. The probability
of scoring any hit at 100 meters (30 meters for pistols) was calculated. For
smoothbore muskets the probability of any given shot to hit a man-sized target
at 100 meters was little more than 50%. The two pistols were far more accurate
at 30 meters, scoring 83% and 99%. The latter figure is comparable to the score
of the modern pistol (99.5%). Muskets targeted at 30 meters had almost 100%
probability to hit. There was almost no improvement in accuracy of guns from
16th to 18th century.
These numbers are really good, better than many expect from
a smoothbore musket. They get even better if you remember that here the target
was man-sized, while in 16th century infantry usually marched into battle in
big formations. That would make such weapon an overkill! But that is a
ballistic test, and no human being can hold the gun so steady. Also, note that
the Graz test was conducted with standardized modern gunpowder made for gun
collectors, which is a more powerful and stable substance than it’s 16th
century predecessor.” https://sellsword.wordpress.com/2011/08/09/firearms/
We now introduce human error
from some good troops:
“- In 1755 two companies of Prussian grenadiers fired at
a target 10 paces broad and 10 feet high. At 300 paces they scored approx. 12.5
% hits and at 150 paces 46 %.”- owing to the fact formations of the period
tended to be very wide, but only 5-6 feet tall- I consider most misses went
over the heads (soldiers of the day apparently tended to fire high) , or in
front of the feet of the battalion, with a few passing between the men. This
target is intended to represent horses, and is nearly twice the height of the
battalions of time. However ‘46% hits’ at 150 yards (yikes).
“At 160 and 320 yards out of
200 rounds fired at a large target, approximating the size of a formed infantry
company, the following number of hits was obtained” -Nafziger's
"Imperial Bayonets" published by Greenhill Books 1996
Hit ratio the Prussian 1809
musket (smooth bore) got at 320 yards: 25%
At 160 yards it got 50%
160 yards
320 yards
Old
Prussian 1782 musket
64
42
New
Prussian 1809 musket
113
42
British
musket
116
55
A
soldier’s accuracy drops dramatically while he is under fire. Because
militaries of the time could not provide a form of target shooting which
represented the distractions of combat, they generally didn’t bother wasting
‘expensive powder’. Even before smoke etc. made shooting even worse.
Musket accuracy in live combat:
Bellow 75 yards: at this distance, the musket was
producing a 1/3 casualties.
“At the Battle of Blenheim (1704) the British with five
battalions attacked the French fortified positions along a front of 750 yds.
The French had approximately 4,000 fusiliers deployed along 900 yds. The
French opened fire at 30 yards with a single devastating volley causing 33
percent casualties to the British attacking force. This came to approximately
800 casualties.”
“At the Battle of Fontenoy (1745) five British battalions
with a total strength of 2,500 men, less a few hundred men due to French
artillery fire, let loose a volley at 30 yards against an attacking force of
five French battalions. The British volley caused 600 casualties to the
French. This would mean that the British muskets were hitting with an
effective rate of 25 percent.”
“In 1813 at Gohrde, 66 French infantrymen fired at 60-80
paces at Germans hiting 27 Hannoverians and Bremen-Verden (40 % hits). In
this case the count is only for one volley at close range.”
(We also have the 30 yard volley at The Battle of the Plains of
Abraham)
100 yards and above:
“Hughes calculated for Albuera, for several volleys at 100
yards the British achieved 5 % ratio of casualties.”
“Results of analysis of well detailed musket firing showed
that under combat conditions only 1-2% of muskets hit the target at ranges of
200 yards” –Mike Neylan
Take a
target that is 5 feet 6 inches tall, 100 yards wide and about a yard deep-
it’s the silhouette of a regiment.
The Modèle
1777 corrigé en l'an IX (Charleville) smooth bore musket used by French Army from
1777-1826 can consistently hit the target out to 150 yards. (Consistently hit
means over 99%). Although the ball does become less stable after 80 yards,
none the less it should be able to keep consistent hits up to 300 yards
against an infantry battalion.
However
the bullet only travels 150 yards, when the musket is leveled parallel with
the ground.
The
British the Land Pattern Musket is a musket which is starting to have trouble
at hitting the target consistently at 150 yards.
As you can
see a combination of poor training, and results taken from when the shooter
was in combat (and so under fire) gives me the reason as to why the musket
performed statistically so poorly in combat, rifling his musket will make
very little difference.
The musket didn't replace the bow until the quality of gunpowder became more reliable.
Wet and humid conditions made firing one a gamble at best. Don't confuse modern black powder with the stuff first used.
Edited by red clay - 07-Aug-2015 at 08:34
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