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Hadrian's Wall? Some questions.

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Zagros View Drop Down
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hadrian's Wall? Some questions.
    Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 23:23
1. Firstly, what was its purpose? 

Popular consensus is simply that Rome built the wall to make the edge of its empire tangible - something to put the mind of its soldiers to rest; something to separate itself from the 'barbarians'.  Or was there something more to it?  Could they simply not control the Picts?  Looking at a map of Gask ridge it seems to pretty much aim to isolate the difficult and desolate terrain of the Highlands from the more economically amenable Lowlands.   It seems that there was a withdrawal from the Gask Ridge as implied by Hadrian's decision to build his wall.   Then later Antoninius decided to move north again and reclaim the bountiful Lowlands by building the Antonine wall.

And if the first line of argument I presented above is to be followed: were there any other examples of such immense fortification projects in the Roman world?

There is something missing from the picture as far as I am concerned and I suspect it has to do with the fact that the Roman's recorded their history and the Picts didn't

2.  Secondly, were there any major confrontations at Hadrian's Wall or was its purpose served as solely a deterrent?



Edited by Zagros - 29-Mar-2008 at 23:40
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 23:37
Some of the pictures I took today:








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  Quote Balaam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2008 at 11:29
How big was Hadrian's wall? From all the pictures and that I've seen of it it doesn't seem very high.
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  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2008 at 16:42
Originally posted by Balaam

How big was Hadrian's wall? From all the pictures and that I've seen of it it doesn't seem very high.


Of course not, this are the ruins LOL

Well, at the borders with the Germanic tribes and other barbarians there was the Danube, Africa was protected by the desert, Hadrian's wall was probably built to protect from the raids,


Edited by Illirac - 30-Mar-2008 at 16:42
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2008 at 17:36
From what I remember reading, it was to stop the Picts. The Empire wasn't expanding further up and the Picts were portrayed as mysterious raiders from the North, atleast thats the feel I got when reading about it. The wall was built to protect the sttlements by the border, and by the way it was built with attention of having Barracks a certain distance from each other, I'd say there was a fear of the Picts to some extent.
 
You'll have to take what I say with a grain of salt since it was quite awhile ago that I read up on Hadrian's Wall.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2008 at 17:52
There were forts every 8 or so miles.  There were mile castles manned by 10-20 men whom patrolled their stretch.  The wall was 6.5 metres high and 3 metres wide and 80 miles long, so it was pretty serious business and the perceived threat from the Picts must have been pretty substantial.
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  Quote kilroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2008 at 18:42
1.  The purpose was to create a semi-permeable frontier, and as a deterrent to Pictish raiders.  The wall itself was never truly made to be defended, raiders did however jump the wall unnoticed and crossed at times though.  It was also used as a means of controlling trade, weapons smuggling and controlling people.  The wall made it much harder for the trouble makers to supply each other with arms.  Tolls and taxes could be collected on goods at the controlled gates fetching the local government much needed revenue.  Also, if you have studied Roman history at all (especially imperial history) an idle army causes trouble.  Keeping an army busy was a means of staving off mutiny or possible conspiracy's.  Many Emperors tended to employ this tactic.  This also was a physical manifestation of Hadrian's policy of reversing the outward expansion set by Trajan and other Emperors before him, which i will elaborate on later.  These forts were also used as staging points for counter raids and attacks.  I would also like to note that Roman control went miles beyond the wall.  They still patrolled deep into the frontier and even established camps and (i think) collected taxes from towns beyond the wall. 

There were other projects of perhaps not quite on par with Hadrian's wall, but massive as well.  On the Germanic frontier, they had a series of walls, towers and forts, which can be shown here, http://worldheritage.heindorffhus.dk/frame-GermanyRomanFrontiers.htm
Many of these forts were built by Hadrian as a part of his policy.  Africa too had a series of forts as well to protect against raiders, even the desert did not fully protect trade routes and towns.  These forts and walls were also made as a semi-permeable frontier.  Control of trade, and people was far more important than defending it.  The Romans usually mustered and attacked before the enemy reached the walls anyways, or would so after the raiders breached the walls.  Open warfare was still their choice of combat.  The legions built all of these walls and forts (including Hadrians wall) but did not man them.  That was left to the Auxiliary units.  The legions would more or less be occupied elsewhere. 

2.  If i remember correctly, the largest engagement would be in the year of 367 CE when Picts, Saxons and a slew of others overran the wall, which is called 'Barbarica conspiratio'  Barbarian conspiracy.  Which lasted for a year, than it was put down hard in 368.  Hadrian wall was retaken.  But this was a surprise attack, which was executed with precision.  If the Romans caught wind of a major army moving toward the wall, they would most likely meet them on open ground if the forces were available.  Which i actually doubt they were at the time, the Romans main problem was with the Alemmani.

If you wish to read further, try Frontiers of the Roman Empire by C. R Whittaker.  Or Rome and the Enemy by Susan P. Mattern. 


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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2008 at 19:14
I believe that the Romans also built some kind of a wall to Mauretania.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 09:16
Thanks for your input Kilroy, much appreciated.

They still patrolled deep into the frontier and even established camps and (i think) collected taxes from towns beyond the wall. 


Do you know much about Gask Ridge?  why didn't they just enhance that into a Hadrian's Wall like structure?  It seems they gave up on that part of Caledonia entirely... unless they still maintained a presence there.  My inclination is simply that they couldn't deal with the Picts as they'd have liked.

By 368 I suppose that the Empire was in complete decline in the region but if they maintained a presence still North of the wall, surely they would have caught wind of the barbarian conspiracy.

If you wish to read further, try Frontiers of the Roman Empire by C. R Whittaker.  Or Rome and the Enemy by Susan P. Mattern. 


I much prefer interactive discourse!
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  Quote kilroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 02:15
I think you pretty much got it.  I do not know much about the Gask region.  However, you are correct.  The local Picts were to much trouble.  The Romans were fighting wars, civil wars and rebellion on multiple fronts at all times, the necessary troops probably weren't available and Rome's interest lied elsewhere.   As far as the patrols and camps into the regions beyond the wall, they were only maintained for a time, and probably stopped well before 368 (which is my guess, i'll try and get my hands on some solid info if you'd like). 

Troops were being drained from Britain to counter the Gothic threat and among others.  Britain's defenses were severely drained, hence why the Pict's decided to launch a rebellion.  So you are correct, the control over that region was limited due to other problems. 

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