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References to strange Trojan allies in the Aeneid

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Aster Thrax Eupator View Drop Down
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: References to strange Trojan allies in the Aeneid
    Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 03:09

First of all, I've placed this in the general history section because it covers the Ancient Medditeranean section and the Ancient near east section.

Basically, whilst reading through the Aeneid, I've been aware of quotes such as
 
"So this woman will live in Mycenae again, and walk as queen in the triumph she has won? Will she see her husband, her father's home and her children and be attended by women of Troy and Phygrian slaves..."
 
Virgil's Aeneid, book 2.578-581, the david west translation
 
...As well as suggestions from experts on the Hittites such as O.R. Gurney, who suggests that the other name for Paris - Alexander - has Hittite links. Troy is mentioned in some Hittite texts as ruling an empire, and having links to a nation called Azarwa, who were allies with and infrequently clashed with the Hittites. Other tales - such as that of Atreus - fighting in the east - all seem to have some kind of vauge connection in this context. We know that there was some kind of conflict in Troy, from the cindered ashes in Strata 6 to the smashed walls (by an earthquake, I feel I must add...), but that the Greeks possibly also had one by extension with her allies, which is mentioned both by Virgil (in the above quote but also in others...) and Homer. Could the Phygrians mentioned above show actual reference to the fact that the Greeks could have fought with Hattian states in Asia Minor as an extension to their war with Troy? I'm not using Virgil as a historical source, before I get accused of doing such, but this does seem a little too coincidental, and the legend of the Trojan war in this context must have some relevence. Discuss - what do you think of this?
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  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 14:23
In my opinion the Iliad was composed of many different poems talking about ancient raids of Myceneans in Asia Minor and the Aegean islands. The Mycenean barons were in reality pirates, that had banded together and raided everyone else (and each other some times). Of course when rich Troy was attacked their allies would be plundered as well.
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 15:42

The references in Hittite history to Myceneans or at least some kind of inhabitants from the Peloponnese conducting raids into Hattian territory are fairly well established - I just wonder how much this relates to the above quote. We know that there was a war at Troy about the time of Stratas 6-7 (that's around 1100-1200 BC), but what of the Hittites? The term "Phygrian" is very specific and applies to a very precise area of Asia minor which at that time was controlled by the old Hittite empire. Could this therefore be a Greek report of Hittite prisoners of war who were going to be made into slaves?

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 10:28
It is assumed that (I think) Trojan had a relationship with Hittites (might be a client-patron relation). In that time frame, almost all cities are kingdoms themselves.

Also, I think Phygrians arrived to Asia minor from Balkans at 700-600 BC. After Hittite civilization crumbled. Then, they were erased from history by coming of Cimmerian hordes.
 
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  Quote ConradWeiser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 17:58

This is a little off-topic, but what of the sea peoples? I always thought they were Greeks, Trojans, and others from Asia Minor... Could they have been the Greek raiders who went to war with Trojan allies that you speak of? We know the Hittite empire colapsed around the same time.

Also, we generally know Philistines were descendant of these raiders, as well as possibly the Etruscans, who were believed to be from Phygria. Was the attack against the Hittite empire, if there was one, the result of an invasion or migration? Was there some type of diaspora from Greece/Asia Minor during these centuries?
Another year! Another deadly blow!
Another mighty empire overthrown!
And we are left, or shall be left, alone.
-William Wordsworth
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 21:25
Was there some type of diaspora from Greece/Asia Minor during these centuries?
 
From what I know from the arrival of the Indo-European Hattians into Cappodocia to the arrival of the Cimmeranians, the populations remained fairly static in the ethnic/migratory sense. Most of the states in Asia Minor at this time were based on a Hattian elite with an underclass of unknown pre-Hattian locals (interestingly rather similar to the Pharonic civilisation...). It's a massive debate as to who the sea peoples actually were, but they probably were not Hittite (apparently Hittite naval power was pretty much unheard of, so trying to equate the naval invasions into Egypt of the Hykosos and sea peoples with the Northern Hittites is clearly folly), and were called "kazgar" or something like that by the Hittites. The only states that weren't really Hattian insomuch as their ruling class and national culture was concerned were the parts of the Assyrian empire that pushed into Asia minor, the proto-Armenian kingdom of Urartu and some of the smaller vassal kingdoms. Much culture in Asia Minor remined stagnant because of the terrain, and generally it wasn't as quickly fluctatuting as it was in Mespotamia - actually even in the 6th century BC, the Lydians and other "pseudo-Greek" states that tried to resist Cyrus's advance were actually decended from the Hattian elite that ruled the Hittite empire. As can be seen, in contrast to mesopotamia, which had already several massive ethnic changes in this time.
 
...As for Greece, the only dispora that I'm aware of is around the 900s-700s when many Greeks fled from the mainland from the advancing Dorians. They majority of states left on the Greek mainland weren't actually Greek as in the original inhabitants of Greece from the Cyclidaic culture to the Myceanean culture - Sparta, the Locrians, Aetolians and Phocians were in all probability decended from Dorian tribes, and the Athenians nobody knows about. It could be said that the Myceanean culture's people fled to Asia minor, but from what's been unearthered it seems like it was just in trickles rather than one mega-exodos, and in any case, the Dorians weren't (at least as far as I'm aware...) one unified people with one unified strategy for attacking the Myceanean cities in Greece, and in any case, this is actually past the time that the Trojan war supposedly was, and the forces that attacked Troy were almost certainly Myceanean.
 
as well as possibly the Etruscans, who were believed to be from Phygria
 
Another interesting link to classical literature - sounds a little like "the Aeneid", doesn't it? The Etruscans - in many respects the predecessors of the Romans - were, as you said, supposedy Phygrian in origin. I doubt if Virgil actually saw it in this way, but as far as we know, the Mycenean culture had a war with a Hattian culture somewhere in Western Asia minor (although the site of Troy has been more or less decided, it's still a bit of a wonky area). Both Virgil and Homer both mention Phygrian allies in their poems, so this really does look like we've got something here.
 
...incidentally, Another link to some eastern allies - in book 1 of the Aeneid, when the bribed Aelous has used his winds to attack the Aenas's Trojan fleet, Aeneas says that he saw a shipfull of Lycians (I can't remember the leaders' name...) drown. It's surely not a coincidence that Lycia was more or less it's own independent state, and was actually often caught between the Hittite empire and their friend/rival Arzawas in the West of Asia Minor above the little Lycian penninsula. This really isn't a coincidence...


Edited by Aster Thrax Eupator - 14-Dec-2007 at 00:38
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