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Tar Szernd
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Topic: Effectiveness of steppe battle tactics Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 07:55 |
So there was no second lance?
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xi_tujue
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Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 08:09 |
^they didn't break like the European lance if I'm not wrong
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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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Sarmat
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Posted: 11-Dec-2007 at 03:16 |
Originally posted by Tar Szernd
So there was no second lance? |
Dear Tar Szerend, unfortunately your post about several lances didn't relate to the point I was trying to say about cataphractes.
Yes, I don't think they used the second lance. Presumably, after the enemy formation had been broken cataphracts used their heavy swords.
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Tar Szernd
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Posted: 11-Dec-2007 at 08:31 |
Ok, why I thought this: because if the lance was tied on the horse nack, how could it be used for the two handed lance fighting (almost like in samurai films). The tactic yuo have described is forcing the sarmatian (after only one attack) to use his secondary weapon and it is hinding both the warrior and the horse in the close fighting.
So I think it is really a misunderstood not used lance cariing method.
Edited by Tar Szernd - 11-Dec-2007 at 08:32
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Temujin
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Posted: 11-Dec-2007 at 20:50 |
i agree with Tar. it would limit the scope of the lance significantly.
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Sarmat
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Posted: 12-Dec-2007 at 01:00 |
Originally posted by Tar Szernd
Ok, why I thought this: because if the lance was tied on the horse nack, how could it be used for the two handed lance fighting (almost like in samurai films). The tactic yuo have described is forcing the sarmatian (after only one attack) to use his secondary weapon and it is hinding both the warrior and the horse in the close fighting.
So I think it is really a misunderstood not used lance cariing method. |
Actully I adressed this right before you posted this comment. Apparently the lance tied to the horse was used to break through close defence infantry formations. According to some assesments it, for example, was used by Parthians in the battle of Carrae in order to break thorugh Roman formations.
Once the formation was broken the lance became obsolete. The cataphract could just get rid of it (as I said earlier the system allowed to unlock and throw away the lance when needed) and use his long sword.
In fact, any kind of lance is obsolete in close combat, only sword could be an effective and handy weapon.
Yes, catafracts sometimes charged without tying the lance, but in that case the impact would be much weaker.
The tied lance also wasn't used against cavalry, but only against infantry. In the attack against cavalry catafract relied only on their hands while holding the lance.
But again the heavy and long lance was used only for the first strike then the sword was used.
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Sarmat
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Posted: 12-Dec-2007 at 03:58 |
Wiki also has it, I should have looked there first of all, as well as you guys.
Cataphract lances were usually supported by a chain attached to the horse's neck, and at the end by a fastening attached to the horse's hind leg, so the full momentum of horse could be applied to the thrust. One reason for this was the lack of stirrups; although the traditional Roman saddle had four horns with which to secure the rider (Driel-Murray & Connolly), these were largely inadequate in keeping a soldier seated upon the full impact of a charge action.
I think on this picture you even can see the chain going from the lance to the horse's neck
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Tar Szernd
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Posted: 12-Dec-2007 at 09:32 |
1. This sassanide has a shield, so he got just one hand for the lance
2. I think it is just the harness, and not a chain.
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Temujin
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Posted: 12-Dec-2007 at 19:51 |
Originally posted by Tar Szernd
2. I think it is just the harness, and not a chain. |
i also think so besides, the horse will not necessarly keep his head still, such a thign would be extremely dangerous for both horse and rider.
Edited by Temujin - 12-Dec-2007 at 19:52
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Sarmat
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Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 00:35 |
Originally posted by Tar Szernd
1. This sassanide has a shield, so he got just one hand for the lance
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Well, it makes the chain even more useful.
Originally posted by Tar Szernd
2. I think it is just the harness, and not a chain. |
It's hard to say looking at this picture what it really is.
My main point that the lance of cataphracts had been indeed connected to the neck of the horse was confirmed though.
Edited by Sarmat12 - 13-Dec-2007 at 00:41
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Sarmat
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Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 00:40 |
Originally posted by Temujin
i also think so
besides, the horse will not necessarly keep his head still, such a thign would be extremely dangerous for both horse and rider.
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Well, it was tied to the lower part of the horse's neck, not to the head. So, the position, of the horse's head didn't really matter.
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toyomotor
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Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 12:05 |
Originally posted by Justinian
Some fascinating stuff guys. I guess the first example that comes to my mind of a sedentary army beating a steppe army is Alexander beating the scythians in, the battle of the jaxartes in 329 b.c. It was not a large battle but, his victory over them is a great example for explaining many of the issues being discussed.
I agree some of the major factors to consider are:
- steppe mobility with majority or all cavalry
- warrior spirit retained by steppe cultures sometimes more so than sedentary civilizations
- percentage of steppe civilizations people bearing arms allowing a small population to fight a much larger one
Also studying history one sees that often the steppe cultures would fight most of their battles in terrain favorable to their tactics; plains that favor cavalry.
To respond to calvo's question:
Usually the steppe cavalry was of superior quality compared to the sedentary cavalry. Also, infantry is at an enormous disadvantage on the open plains when facing cavalry. Often the steppe forces would be better trained due to their way of life. Normally, the sedentary forces would not know how to fight in a combined arms fashion. (using cavalry and infantry effectively, co-ordination between the two) When the sedentary forces leaders were able to effectively integrate their infantry and cavalry their chances of victory went up by a very large amount. Often times sedentary forces would use the same tactics one would use in mountains or hilly terrain, not adapting their tactics to fit the terrain they were fighting on. On the steppes cavalry ruled unless "caught" by the infantry.
I'm sure there are other examples, but Alexander's battle against the scythians is a perfect example of how to beat steppe nomads. |
The Mongol victories against armoured infantry, and for that matter heavy cavalry, was in part due to their warrior spirit, in part due to tactics and in part due to weight of numbers. There no European states which could put one or more hundred thousand troops on the field at a given time, and retreat behind city walls resulted in one of two things; siege or relentless attack until they gave in. Being nomadic and self sufficient, the Mongol leaders were masters at logistics.
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