Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

in a coventional war who would have won u

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 456
Poll Question: in a conventional war in 1987 who would have won nato or warsaw pact
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
12 [75.00%]
4 [25.00%]
You can not vote in this poll

Author
DreamWeaver View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel

Suspended

Joined: 02-May-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 555
  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: in a coventional war who would have won u
    Posted: 15-Jul-2010 at 10:35
"n March 1973, Headquarters USAFE transferred from Lindsey Air Station, Wiesbaden, West Germany, to Ramstein Air Base. In the mid-1980s, USAFE maintained and operated 25 main bases and more than 400 geographically separated units in 190 different locations. These bases supported about 850 aircraft. The community stood at more than 140,000: 60,000 active-duty airmen, 10,000 civilian workers, and almost 70,000 family members."



According to USAF website for reference
Back to Top
Maximus Germanicus I View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 26-Jun-2010
Location: US
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 85
  Quote Maximus Germanicus I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2010 at 10:36
So Russia in this plan would sacrifice 2 mil Poles just to get to the Rhine
Back to Top
DreamWeaver View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel

Suspended

Joined: 02-May-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 555
  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2010 at 10:39
Quality of Infantry?

NATO forces comparativle smaller but how does that stack up compared to WP conscripts, who had an exceedingly poor performance in Afghanistan?
Back to Top
Mosquito View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 05-Aug-2004
Location: Sarmatia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2537
  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2010 at 10:41
Originally posted by opuslola


It also seems that the "kingfish" missile, had but a range of 185 miles or so! It seems that the outer defensive ring of a carrier fleet, whould have a long time to interfer with the bombers! Not even mentioning that these bombers would quite likely have no fighter support! It can also be considered that Western jamming, and other devices, might well have been more advanced that Soviet guidance systems?

So, outer ring of smaller crusiers, f-14's, FA-18's, and ship to air missiles? It might have been interesting?

Regards,
 
 
hmmm, not sure about this range of Kingfish
 
Wikipedia says:
 
Range: 300 - 700 km (185 miles)
 
1 nautical mile is  1852 m or 1,852 km, so max range 700 km seems to be  377,969 nm
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
Back to Top
Mosquito View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 05-Aug-2004
Location: Sarmatia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2537
  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2010 at 10:48
Originally posted by DreamWeaver

Quality of Infantry?

NATO forces comparativle smaller but how does that stack up compared to WP conscripts, who had an exceedingly poor performance in Afghanistan?
 
 
In my opinion - except for some elitary units which were some soviet panzer divisions, some soviet and WP paratroopers , the quality of WP conscripts was very low and probably those from Soviet Union - the lowest.
 
 
As for planes from the USA flying to Britain - you have said it earlier Max, they had to land somwhere...
 
 
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
Back to Top
Mosquito View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 05-Aug-2004
Location: Sarmatia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2537
  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2010 at 10:53
Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus I

So Russia in this plan would sacrifice 2 mil Poles just to get to the Rhine
 
 
Yup, in the non conventional war... thats why colonel Kulkinski became CIA agent in WP HQ, he betrayed after reading it.
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4620
  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2010 at 11:08
I don't really understand "sacrifice 2 million Poles?" Just why whould they expect such casualties? Did they mean that WP Polish divisions would carry the brunt of the attack across N. Europe? Just where would the Soviet divisions be, or the E. German?

Somebody fill me in?

Did WP Poland even have 2 million men in its army?

Or did Russia think it might well have to fight its way thru Poland also?

Edited by opuslola - 15-Jul-2010 at 11:16
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
Back to Top
Cryptic View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 05-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962
  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2010 at 11:31
Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus I

So Russia in this plan would sacrifice 2 mil Poles just to get to the Rhine
 
Where does that number come from, a total nuculear exchange targeting cities? If the Soviets attacked at their strongest, Polish contributions would only be reliable units.  The soviets were not going to risk the Polish army turning on them.  
 
Polish casualties (dead and wounded) would probably be:
 
-thousands in Denmark, Northeren Germany (Airborne, Marine, select  Mechanized Divisions)
-Several hundred military casualties in Poland from air raids (Aircrew, air bases, strategic targets)
-At most, several hundred civilians  (collateral damage)
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 15-Jul-2010 at 12:57
Back to Top
Maximus Germanicus I View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 26-Jun-2010
Location: US
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 85
  Quote Maximus Germanicus I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2010 at 11:37
That was based on the Soviet war plan 7 days to the Rhine, they palnned on using low yeild nukes--I know it is a devation from the topic but I think it shows the Russian Mind
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4620
  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2010 at 11:41
I would assume, since I no nothing about it, that Poland was the home to many hundreds of thousands of Russian forward units, both land and air?

Would this account for the number of deaths expected?

It seems that Cryptic and I came to the same question about the same time?

As Ricky Ricardo said to Lucy; "splain somthin to me Lucy?" SIC

Well it seems you did just as I was posting my Lucy comedy!

Yes, Nukes could make a difference!

But, I would see no reason for the Ruskies to Nuke Poland, they must have assumed that NATO would use tactical Nukes on the Russian supply bases, etc.?

Or would it be the result of radiation poisoning?

Edited by opuslola - 15-Jul-2010 at 11:51
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
Back to Top
Mosquito View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 05-Aug-2004
Location: Sarmatia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2537
  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2010 at 13:04

Seven Days to the River Rhine was a top secret limited war game exercise developed in 1979 by the Warsaw Pact. It depicted the Soviet bloc's vision of a seven-day atomic war between NATO and Warsaw Pact forces.

This possible World War III scenario was released by the conservative Polish government following their election in 2005, in order to "draw a line under the country's Communist past", and "educate the Polish public about the old regime."[edit] Description of Battle

The plans predicted that NATO would launch a nuclear attack on the Vistula river valley in a first strike scenario, which would prevent Soviet bloc commanders from sending reinforcements to East Germany to prevent a NATO invasion of that country.

The plan expected as many as two million Polish civilians would die in such a war, which would essentially destroy the country. With options limited, a Soviet counter-strike against West Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands and Denmark would take place in an effort to slow an invasion.

[edit] Nuclear Response

Maps associated with the released plan show nuclear strikes in many NATO states, but France and the United Kingdom are entirely untouched by nuclear attack. There are several possibilities for the lack of strikes, one of the most significant being that both France and the United Kingdom are Nuclear Weapons States "NWS", and as such retain nuclear arsenals that could be employed in retaliation for nuclear strikes against their nations.

The French forces employed a nuclear strategy known as Stratégie du faible au fort, which is considered a "counter-value" strategy, which implies that a nuclear attack on France would be responded to by a strike on Russian cities. See Force de Frappe for more information on the French conceptualization of nuclear warfare.

The Guardian, however, speculates that "France would have escaped attack, possibly because it is not a member of NATO's integrated structure. Britain, which has always been at the heart of NATO, would also have been spared, suggesting Moscow wanted to stop at the Rhine to avoid overstretching its forces." [1].

There are many high-value targets in Britain (like RAF Fylingdales, RAF Mildenhall or RAF Lakenheath) that would then have to be struck in a conventional manner in this plan, though a nuclear strike would be far more effective (and as the plans show, a preferable option to the Soviet leadership as shown by their strikes in Western Europe). The plan also indicates that USAF fighter-bombers, primarily the long-ranged F-111 would be employed in nuclear strikes, and that they would launch from those British bases.

Without further clarification from the Polish government, or the declassification of further documents, it is difficult to move beyond speculation in determining the reasoning behind this very significant decision.



Edited by Mosquito - 15-Jul-2010 at 13:05
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
Back to Top
Cryptic View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 05-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962
  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2010 at 13:08
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus I

 
I can see the 9th Infantry (manchus) and the 7th ID (Wolfhounds), 25th ID (tropical lightning), 2nd BAT all marching thr the streets of Vladivostok (along withe the Aussies the NZ armies, who under the ANZAC pact are tied to NATO)
  
Mac this is pure fantasy.
I agree with Mosquito for the same reasons.  Even if the invasion was feasible, the Russians have plenty of space to trade (just ask the 17th century Swedes, Napoleon and Hitler).
 
As side note, I cant see Australia and New Zealand sending large units for a foreign adventure in Russia. Instead, they would send a single large batalion.  Limited help of a "double volunteer" unit would keep ANZAC casualties down and both conservatives and liberals happy.


Edited by Cryptic - 15-Jul-2010 at 13:16
Back to Top
Mosquito View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 05-Aug-2004
Location: Sarmatia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2537
  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2010 at 16:05
Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus I

Mosquito like always is wrong,
 
First there were 3,700 M1s in Europe at the time. (or on PPAFO) The M1 was battle tested and when facing T-72s were very succesfull
 
The M1A1 was capable of making kills at ranges in excess of 2,500 metres (8,200 ft). This range was crucial in combat against tanks of Soviet design in Desert Storm, as the effective range of the main gun in the Soviet/Iraqi tanks was less than 2,000 metres (6,600 ft)
 
The M-60 was also battle tested they destroyed T-72s in the Gulf war and in the Isreali -Egyptina war.
 
 
 
 
 
Like for an expert you seem to forget that M1 used that this tank had that time inferior canon compared to T72 canon. It was The main armament of the original model M1 was the M68A1 105mm rifled tank gun - wchich was really the old british cannon L7.


Edited by Mosquito - 19-Jul-2010 at 02:16
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
Back to Top
DreamWeaver View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel

Suspended

Joined: 02-May-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 555
  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2010 at 16:09
Cannon size goes out the window if the gunning isnt up scratch.
Back to Top
Mosquito View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 05-Aug-2004
Location: Sarmatia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2537
  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2010 at 17:00
not quite truth, some my opponents in this discussion many times were saying about how better range of fire had US tanks than T72. So it is false, that time NATO tanks (except for German Leopards) had worse cannons than WP tanks. In fact - much worse. To say truth Americans still didnt have technology to make good canons and right now they use in their M1A1 German canons, just like earlier used british canons. So the theory about supremacy of NATO tanks has fallen. WP tanks could destroy NATO tanks from the same range - if not bigger. And against such M1 - T80 definatelly wasnt inferior.

Edited by Mosquito - 18-Jul-2010 at 17:18
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
Back to Top
Mosquito View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 05-Aug-2004
Location: Sarmatia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2537
  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2010 at 17:10
As for air supremacy on the sea - you have also forgotten that in fact Soviets had somthing what could easilly neutralise US aircrafts. In fact some solutions that Soviet had in the begining of 80ties were not achieved by US till invented F 22 
 
 
 
Check this plane which was armed with radar that US aricrats didnt have before F-22 and with this rockets:
 
 


Edited by Mosquito - 18-Jul-2010 at 18:22
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
Back to Top
DreamWeaver View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel

Suspended

Joined: 02-May-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 555
  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2010 at 17:43
Gunning skill, the ability to hit ones target accurately and repeatedly in all conditions. As opposed to size, range calibre of the cannon etc.
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4620
  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2010 at 20:06
Since my compugter would not take your sites, then I will have to be neutral!
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
Back to Top
Mosquito View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 05-Aug-2004
Location: Sarmatia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2537
  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2010 at 02:14
Originally posted by opuslola

Since my compugter would not take your sites, then I will have to be neutral!
 
 
your computer cant take wikipedia????
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
Back to Top
DreamWeaver View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel

Suspended

Joined: 02-May-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 555
  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2010 at 03:55
computers are tempremental creatures after all
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 456

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.