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bg_turk View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 13:24
Proponents of the Armenian "Genocide" thesis often use the following quote by Hitler to advance a link with the Holocaust.

"Unsere Strke ist unsere Schnelligkeit und unsere Brutalitt. Dschingis Chan hat Millionen Frauen und Kinder in den Tod gejagt, bewut und frhlichen Herzens. Die Geschichte sieht in ihm nur den groen Staatengrnder. Was die schwache westeuropische Zivilisation ber mich behauptet, ist gleichgltig. Ich habe den Befehl gegeben und ich lasse jeden fsilieren, der auch nur ein Wort der Kritik uert da das Kriegsziel nicht im Erreichen von bestimmten Linien, sondern in der physischen Vernichtung des Gegners besteht. So habe ich, einstweilen nur im Osten, meine Totenkopfverbnde bereitgestellt mit dem Befehl, unbarmherzig und mitleidslos Mann, Weib und Kind polnischer Abstammung und Sprache in den Tod zu schicken. Nur so gewinnen wir den Lebensraum, den wir brauchen. Wer redet heute noch von der Vernichtung der Armenier?"

As published in:
"Akten zur deutschen auswrtigen Politik" (ser. D, vol. 7, 1961).

It appears that in the context the quote does not refer to the Holocaust, but to the invasion of Poland and Hitler's intention to anihilate the Polish people. Armenians have on many occasions use the above quote to show that Hitler's Holocaust decision was in fact inspired by the 1915 events.

What is even more controversial, if it is claimed that he referred to the Armenians in the manner cited above, while delivering a secret talk to members of his General Staff, a week prior to his attack on Poland, one would expect to see the same references later as Germans were meticulous record keepers. However, there is no reference to the Armenians in the original texts of the two Hitler speeches delivered on August 22, 1939, published as the official texts in the reliable Nuremberg documents."

Did Hitler really utter these words, or is this another attempted forgergy by the Armenian propaganda machine to pursuade the world that what happened to them was really a Genocide? What are the most reliable sources for this claim?
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mamikon View Drop Down
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Posts: 2200 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 14:58
The speech by Hitler has nothing to do with Armenian Genocide being real or not, seeing how it took place 20 or so years after. It only reminds us that past injustices gone unpunished will only allow for more to come, some at even a greater scale.

Edited by mamikon - 28-Oct-2006 at 15:01
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Posts: 659 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 15:27
A couple days ago you (accidentally?) posted this:
Originally posted by bg_turk

French denial of complicity in Genocide, is as bad as Turkish denial, and should be confronted head on.

Did you open this thread to correct your "mistake"?
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Posts: 2347 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 16:53
I opened this thread to learn about the original source of Hitler's quote. Can you provide it?
 
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Posts: 1066 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 17:24
Something for this thread:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_quote

The Armenian quote is a paragraph included in a speech by Adolf Hitler to Wehrmacht commanders at his Obersalzberg home on August 22, 1939, a week before the German invasion of Poland.


German and English wording

Third paragraph of Hitler's speech:

"Unsere Stдrke ist unsere Schnelligkeit und unsere Brutalitдt. Dschingis Chan hat Millionen Frauen und Kinder in den Tod gejagt, bewuЯt und frцhlichen Herzens. Die Geschichte sieht in ihm nur den groЯen Staatengrьnder. Was die schwache westeuropдische Zivilisation ьber mich behauptet, ist gleichgьltig. Ich habe den Befehl gegeben und ich lasse jeden fьsilieren, der auch nur ein Wort der Kritik дuЯert daЯ das Kriegsziel nicht im Erreichen von bestimmten Linien, sondern in der physischen Vernichtung des Gegners besteht. So habe ich, einstweilen nur im Osten, meine Totenkopfverbдnde bereitgestellt mit dem Befehl, unbarmherzig und mitleidslos Mann, Weib und Kind polnischer Abstammung und Sprache in den Tod zu schicken. Nur so gewinnen wir den Lebensraum, den wir brauchen. Wer redet heute noch von der Vernichtung der Armenier?"

The above is verbatim according to the publication in the "Akten zur deutschen auswдrtigen Politik" (ser. D, vol. 7, 1961).

In his book "What about Germany?" (1942), the American journalist Louis P. Lochner offered the following English translation of the document then in his possession:

Our strength consists in our speed and in our brutality. Genghis Khan led millions of women and children to slaughter -- with premeditation and a happy heart. History sees in him solely the founder of a state. Its a matter of indifference to me what a weak western European civilisation will say about me. I have issued the command -- and Ill have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad -- that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formation in readiness -- for the present only in the East -- with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks to-day of the annihilation of the Armenians? (p. 11-12)

A variety of different wordings have been published since World War II, mostly retaining linguistic accuracy nevertheless. The following tries to be closer to the original:

Our strength is our quickness and our brutality. Genghis Khan had millions of women and children hunted down and killed, deliberately and with a gay heart. History sees in him only the great founder of States. What the weak Western European civilization alleges about me, does not matter. I have given the order - and will have everyone shot who utters but one word of criticism - that the aim of {translator: this} war does not consist in reaching certain {translator: geographical} lines, but in the enemies' physical elimination. Thus, for the time being only in the east, I put ready my Death's Head units, with the order to kill without pity or mercy all men, women, and children of the Polish race or language. Only thus will we gain the living space that we need. Who still talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?




Edited by The Chargemaster - 28-Oct-2006 at 17:27
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Posts: 1066 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 17:44
Also this thing can be seen here: http://itwasjohnson.impiousdigest.com/3indxa.htm



Изображението "http://impiousdigest.com/ar-vict-heads3_thumb.jpg" не може да бъде изобразен, защото съдържа грешки.

Turkey, 1915-16: At least 2,000,000 dead. (Click to enlarge)

Изображението "http://impiousdigest.com/Heads_thumb.jpg" не може да бъде изобразен, защото съдържа грешки.

Germany 1939-1945: At least 6,000,000 dead (Click to enlarge)


Jewish Holocaust Modeled on Turkish Genocide of Christians

The genocide blueprint for both Germany and Turkey was identical except that the Nazis revised it slightly-- the Nazis had more than 300 death camps, and the ovens. Taalat Bey, Turkish Minister of the Interior and one of the chief architects of the Christian massacres was questioned by a reporter for the Berliner Tageblatt about why so many women and children were slaughtered.

"We have been reproached," he said, "that we make no distinction between innocent Armenians and the guilty; but that is utterly impossible in view of the fact that those who are innocent today might be guilty tomorrow."

In World War I, with the twentieth century genocide of some two million Christian Armenians, the Ottoman Turks became the actual precursors to the Nazis. The first modern genocide campaign affected not the Jews but Christians. Under Sultan Abd al-Hamad, the Ottoman Turks instituted the use of freight cars and collection centers to lead up to 2,000,000 Christians to their deaths in 1915.

The Christian and Jewish Holocausts of WWI and WWII

A murdered Armenian family. The genocide of some 2 million Armenian Christians, 1915-16. It preceded the Holocaust and its methodology, e.g. using freight cars to lead victims to their deaths through slow starvation and the use of misleading collection centers, was employed by the Nazis.

Freight cars would take these Christians to remote areas in the desert where they could starve to death. Or many were slaughtered outright upon arriving there. The Young Turks deceived the Christians just like the Nazis would later do to the Jews; they were told to report to collection centers by claiming they were being mobilized for wartime labor service.



Edited by The Chargemaster - 28-Oct-2006 at 17:46
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Posts: 659 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 17:53
Originally posted by bg_turk

I opened this thread to learn about the original source of Hitler's quote. Can you provide it?

Oh sorry, I misunderstood your intensions. No, unfortunately I can't provide the source.


Edited by Neoptolemos - 28-Oct-2006 at 17:54
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Posts: 1869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 18:05
Originally posted by The Chargemaster


At least 2,000,000 dead.

It is still increasing huh?

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Posts: 1066 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 05:37
Originally posted by The Chargemaster

At least 2,000,000 dead.

Originally posted by Feanor

It is still increasing huh?

Well, that`s just a quote.

It seems to me, that this is the number not only of the annihilated armenians, but also of the annihilated pontian greeks and christian assyrians.

That`s why in that source it is called not just "armenian" genozide, but genozide of christians.




Edited by The Chargemaster - 29-Oct-2006 at 05:40
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Posts: 4361 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 06:13
Originally posted by bg_turk



It appears that in the context the quote does not refer to the Holocaust, but to the invasion of Poland and Hitler's intention to anihilate the Polish people. Armenians have on many occasions use the above quote to show that Hitler's Holocaust decision was in fact inspired by the 1915 events.

What is even more controversial, if it is claimed that he referred to the Armenians in the manner cited above, while delivering a secret talk to members of his General Staff, a week prior to his attack on Poland, one would expect to see the same references later as Germans were meticulous record keepers. However, there is no reference to the Armenians in the original texts of the two Hitler speeches delivered on August 22, 1939, published as the official texts in the reliable Nuremberg documents."

Did Hitler really utter these words, or is this another attempted forgergy by the Armenian propaganda machine to pursuade the world that what happened to them was really a Genocide? What are the most reliable sources for this claim?


 
As you might have heard, the term "holocaust" does not only refer to the genocide on the Jewish people ( The Shoah) but also to the genocide on other ethnic, religious and social groups ( as Sinti and Roma, Homosexuals, etc) and as such also to Slavic people, regarded as inferior humans according to Nazi ideology. Hitler quite clearly outlines his plan to exterminate the Polish population in order to create "living space" ( for  superior Aryan=German settlers). This is quite clearly an intentional genocide, and as such Armenians are right to draw paralells to the genocide on their own ethnic group in Turkey, that is, if you accept that as a fact.
 
As for the authenticity of the quote, it is indeed controversial, with neither side being able to prove that Hitler did or did not utter this words. There are various version of his speech in circulation, some contain the quote on the Armenians, other don't. As, AFAIK, the account's of Hitler's adress is based on the verbal accounts of those who attented the meeting, it is not surprising that they differ on details. As the most important bit of his speech was concerned with the impending campaign in Poland, it's further not surprising that not all who attempted to retell his speech might have included a , in the context, rather insignificant remark.
As, however, the claim of the Armenians is not based on this quote , but on factual historical evidence, Hitler's quote is only a very, very  minor argument for the correctness of such claim.
 
 
 
PS: I would like to point out that this thread deals with a very specific topic, and not with the "Armenian genocide" in general. Any attempt to turn it into that will result in closure.
 


Edited by Komnenos - 29-Oct-2006 at 06:14
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Posts: 2347 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 10:22
Originally posted by Komnenos

As, however, the claim of the Armenians is not based on this quote , but on factual historical evidence, Hitler's quote is only a very, very  minor argument for the correctness of such claim.


The Hitler quote is the one big gun the Genocide proponents never miss the opportunity to use. Go to any "Genocide" presentation and you will invariably always hear it mentioned. It has become one very powerful tool in the marketing of this Genocide.

Thank you for an otherwise informative post.


For more information on the quote, the following articly may be useful:

The U.S. Congress and Adolf Hitler on the Armenians

Heath Lowry

Political Communication and Persuasion, Volume 3, Number 2 (1985)

Accessible at:

http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/arm_uscongress/arm_uscongress.html


Even the dean of Armenian-American historians, Professor Richard Hovannisian of UCLA, stated in a 1983 address to the World Affairs Council  of Pittsburgh, "Perhaps Adolf Hitler had good cause in 1939 to declare, according to the Nuremberg trial transcripts, "Who, after all, speaks today of the extermination of the Armenians?"


Eventhough no such evidence exists in the Nuremberg trial transcripts!


Edited by bg_turk - 29-Oct-2006 at 10:24
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Posts: 2200 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 12:33

I have issued the command - and I'll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad - that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formations in readiness - for the present only in the East - with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (lebensraum) which we need.  Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"


This quote is the English version of the German document handed to Louis P. Lochner in Berlin. It first appeared in Lochner's What About Germany?  (New York: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1942), pp. 1-4. The Nuremberg Tribunal later identified the document as L-3 or Exhibit USA-28. Two other versions of the same document appear in Appendices II and III. For the German original cf. Akten zur Deutschen Auswartigen Politik 1918-1945, Serie D, Band VII, (Baden-Baden, 1956), pp. 171-172.

http://www.teachgenocide.com/bkgrnd/hitler.htm


I will try to find the quote from the book itself. AFAIK the book is online


Edited by mamikon - 29-Oct-2006 at 12:34
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Posts: 2200 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 12:38
I found the book, from "Questia"

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=880626

enjoy
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Posts: 2800 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 13:28
Woah, now its 2 million, who known in twenty years it may leap again to 3 Confused
 
This quote is an embarrasing fraudalent claim, no self-respecting historian or scholor uses it anymore its being ridiculed.
 
If it had any relevance, it would have been used at the "Nurenburg" trials, however, it was rejected as it wasn't credible to be used as evidence.
 
The Holocoust was proven, with hard facts, evidence and objective sources in a court of LAW, it was justice. The Nazi's were given their chance to argue their case as defendants, they couldn't deny their guilt and so were proved to be guilty.
 
 
Another hole in the Armenian stories.


Edited by Bulldog - 29-Oct-2006 at 13:31
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Posts: 2200 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 14:09
The only one embarrasing is you, I gave you the book, go read
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Posts: 2347 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 14:11
Originally posted by mamikon

The Nuremberg Tribunal later identified the document as L-3 or Exhibit USA-28.

And have not deemed it approprate to be used as evidence.  The  "unidentified American newspaperman", who supplied those documents, was in fact Lochner himself.

Lochner, an American journalist, is the only and main source behind this quote.

Prof. Lowry asserts that Lochner doctored the documents leaked to him for propaganda purposes, aimed at portraying Hitler in an extremeley negative light to his allies, neutrals and rivals.

The following quotes which appear in Lochner's version are completel absent in the official Nurenberg transcripts:


Mussolini is threatened by a nit-wit of a king and the treasonable scoundrel of a crown prince.

After Stalin's death-he is a very sick man-we shall demolish the Soviet Union.

The (Japanese) Emperor is a counterpart of the last Czar. Weak, cowardly, undecided.

I got to know those wretched worms, Daladier and Chamberlain, in Munich.

(The peoples of the Far East and Arabia  are) at best lacquered semi apes who crave to be flogged.

Carol of Romania is a thoroughly corrupt slave of his sexual desires.

The King of Belgium and the Nordic Kings are soft jumping jacks.

I'll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad.

(I have given) orders to send to death mercilessly, and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?




Two other versions of the same document appear in Appendices II and III.

None of which mention anything in any way, shape or form about Armenians. Armenians are mentioned only in Lochner's doctored version which is in many ways inconsistent with the official documents in Nurenberg.




Edited by bg_turk - 29-Oct-2006 at 14:27
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Posts: 2800 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 14:16
Its a well known fraud.
 
I don't see why Mamikon insists on carrying this debate any further, its nothing but propoganda which was rejected at the Nurenburg trials and not allowed to be used as evidence in the case.
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Posts: 4361 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 15:56
Let's Wikipedia have the last word on this, an unusually wise and balanced statement.
 

"In the absence of any means of either confirming or refuting the authenticity of the quote, and in light of the intense partisan passions surrounding both the Armenian genocide and the Holocaust, it is unlikely that this issue can ever be satisfactorily resolved."



Edited by Komnenos - 30-Oct-2006 at 07:18
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