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Topic ClosedEvolution or Creationism?

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Evolution or Creationism?
    Posted: 17-Jun-2007 at 19:02
I am simply saying that the source of morals is religion.
And you'd be wrong, they are based on culture. Looking at Religious morals through history, I'd say Religion takes it from the constant evolving culture of civilization.
Americas founding morals are for the most part the same as (and founded on) the Bible.
But our founding fathers made sure we didn't support the bible to make it a land of freedom and to welcome all. James Madison, known as the father of the Constitution made sure that Christianity wasn't the established religion in the US and  made sure that Christians didn't get any special treatment over others like tax exemptions.
Ben Franklin had the word "god" taken out of the constitution during one of the drafts to leave it up to interpretation for everyone substituting it with a word that doesn't mean a being necessesarily.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 01:07

The scientific consensus is that evolution is the best explaination for the evidence observed in the world today. Whether it's the extensive fossil record laid down over epochs, observations on the variations of closely related species like Darwin did or modern comparative DNA research.

The fossil record for complex multi-cellular life goes back about 550 million years. In those early fossils can be seen all the major groups that make up modern life on the planet and the modifications over time can be traced through the fossils in different rock strata that were laid down over millions of years.
 
Through comparitive DNA relationships between species can be studied, such as that between man and chimpanzees, with which we share 99% similar genetic makeup.
 
You can argue all you want El Pollo Loco, but what is your source of your information? A document that has gone through so many changes over two millenia that it hardly resembles its original form. One that also leaves out most of its original content, only four gospels out of 30 went into the modern form of the bible and its content has been changed many times to reflect the practical needs of the church at the time, not the original message.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 03:48
Originally posted by El Pollo Loco

 
Quite simply, in order for the universe to exist, there must be god, or some thing to which certain rules dont or cant apply.

Interesting theory. I need some time to give you a thorough reply on this. Perhaps tomorrow...

 
No comments on the rest, you're too bussy attacking me, instead of making a serious effort to address my views.
 
 
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Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 04:03
Oppenheim has experimentally proved evolution using Faraday Isolators in a SS7 system. He successfully modelled the chance of a genetic change under these conditions using a binomial distribution with an expected value of 0.034

End of Discussion.
Originally posted by S&D

And you'd be wrong, they are based on culture. Looking at Religious morals through history, I'd say Religion takes it from the constant evolving culture of civilization.

No he wouldn't. But nor would you. Morals are of course based on both religion and culture.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 04:53
Can't we say that religion is an element of culture? That should be inclusive enough (?)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 09:33
I suspect that to a great extent religion arises from pre-existing morals, not the other way around.
 
edit: To make that a bit more precise, the morals that a religion teaches tend to be the morals prevalent in the culture in which the religion arose.
 
Religion of course has other aspects that moral teaching.


Edited by gcle2003 - 18-Jun-2007 at 09:34
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 13:46
Originally posted by El Pollo Loco

 
Quite simply, in order for the universe to exist, there must be god, or some thing to which certain rules dont or cant apply.

This argument is the same as the previous one you posted, the ones deriving again from Aquinas and they all pertain to the theory of regression: "there must have been a time where no physical things existed. But since physical things exist now, there must have been something non-physical to bring them into existence and we call this God."

You're saying the same thing with different words, so I'll simply repeat my previous reply:
Originally posted by Yiannis

   
 
Originally posted by El Pollo Loco

   
And if you want some science, here is some: According to physics, the world can not exist without some being or thing that created the rules. So there had to be a "creator" in some sense, no matter how you look at it.
 
Ah! The famous Aquinas argument. I wondered when it was going to pop-up. LOL
 
Core idea here is the concept of regress and Aquinas invokes God in order to terminate it. He makes the entirely unwarranted assumption that God in not subject to regress himself. So here we have the need to terminate the infinite regress process, we create a creture of infinite power and call it "God" and therefore we have an answer to our Phycics questions.
But why not go to the direction of a "big bang" end to the regression or, if not satisfactory, continue research until another theory gives answer to this question.
By claiming that something called "God" is the termination in Aquinas regression, is to put it mildly "unhelpfull".  
 
I'll simply add the following: even if we concieve such a creature who is the Creator, simply because we "need" one, there is absolutelly no reason to suggest any humans attributes to it, such as listening to prayers, forgiving sins (what is a sin?) and reading hidden thoughts.
 
God, according to Abrahamic religions is omnipotence and omniscience. This is mutually incompatible, if God is omnipotence, s/he must already know how he's going to intervene to change the course of history using his omnipotence. But this means he can't change his mind about his intervention, which means he's not omnipotent.
Or as the paradox goes:
 
Can omniscient God, who
Knows the future, find
The omnipotence to
Chagge his future mind?
 
Now if you want to define God as the sum of the laws of Physics, discoved and yet to be found, and which laws define the creation and development of the Univerce, perhaps we have something to talk about. Otherwise if you want to talk in religious terms...
 
 
 


Edited by Yiannis - 18-Jun-2007 at 13:49
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 14:31

Documents like the bible were meant to be guides not rulebooks, any time there's an attempt to treat them as literal representations of the real world problems result.

Even science is the best guess at the current time, with the best information possible. And while it's possible at some point there will be a better explaination for the effect we see in the world as evolution, none has come along yet.
 
The evidence simply does not support the creation of life as a single and static event. The geological record is full of cataclismic events which have eliminated the majoirty of life in the world at the time. After these events the fossil record shows how the remaining life has radiated into to many species to fill the many empty ecological niches. It's a process that can be clearly described and one that doesn't need a conscious intervention to make work.
 
God is simply what we don't understand yet, and evolution doesn't come under that category anymore. We even understand the primary mechanism through which evolution works now with the discovery of DNA.


Edited by DukeC - 18-Jun-2007 at 14:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 15:01
Originally posted by DukeC

God is simply what we don't understand yet
 
That's an intersting proposition, I'll remember it. Thanks!
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 16:23
Originally posted by Yiannis

Originally posted by DukeC

God is simply what we don't understand yet
 
That's an intersting proposition, I'll remember it. Thanks!
 
Some historical examples are the way natural phenomena that weren't understood were given human aspects like Vulcan and his forges causing vulcanism or Zeus hurling his bolts down from Olympus to explain lightning.
 
Under the Israelites all of the unexplained was brought under one all powerful god and Christ brought a human connection to that god.
 
Now developments like quantum entanlgement are showing us that life and matter can be connected at some very fundamental levels. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 17:26
Originally posted by Omar

No he wouldn't. But nor would you. Morals are of course based on both religion and culture.
Honestly I feel they aren't at all. Though I do believe that Religion has more success in passing morals onto people as it becomes apart of a spiritual system. Morals keep changing through history and religion is always following it, and not always quickly.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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