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yan.
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Topic: Toponymy Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 05:26 |
Are there any rules how long toponyms (place names) usually persist? Apparently, some geographical names, like Rome, Egypt, or the Danube, Teveri, Po rivers, stay around for millenia without anyone really noticing. Others come up when a particular people takes over an area, like England, France, Normandy. Still others are introduced on purpose, like Constantinople, Wolgograd, Ulaanbaatar and many more. There may even be names that seem to be ancient although their current use is rather new, like in the case of the Teutoburg forest.
So, which categories of geographical features tend to keep their names, and which ones tend to lose it?
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 05:30 |
Well, permanent objects gets the most permanent names: rivers, lakes and mountains in particular. While most names of towns and lands can be traced to a certain period, the etymology and meaning of the names of the mentioned geographical features have in many cases been lost a very long time ago. Just for Sweden, all names on towns, provinces and even rivers can be interpreted to mean something, while the names of lakes are often totally incomprehensible, even to scholars.
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Aelfgifu
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Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 06:36 |
Rivers tend to keep their name so long they can be used in research: The old border between celtic and germanic tribes can be seen in the river names. In the celtic languages, rivers are female, in Germanic they are male. So hence Donau is F but Rhine and Elbe are M.
There is a very good book on placenames in England: Margaret Gelling, Signposts to the Past, Placenames and the history of England (London, 1978). England is interesting for this kind of research because it had so many changes in language: Brit, Latin, Saxon, Scandinavian, French etc. And each language left its mark on placenames.
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Ikki
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Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 10:33 |
The great places as countries or provinces tend to change their names from time to time.
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Aelfgifu
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Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 10:42 |
yes, because names of countries an provinces are often closely connected to the political situation, whereas geography is mostly not. (or so I think anyway)
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yan.
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Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 13:14 |
Originally posted by Aelfgifu
Rivers tend to keep their name so long they can be used in research: The old border between celtic and germanic tribes can be seen in the river names. In the celtic languages, rivers are female, in Germanic they are male. So hence Donau is F but Rhine and Elbe are M. |
I always thought that in German, big rivers are usually male, while smaller ones are often female. But since this doesn't seem to apply to foreign rivers, I might be wrong.
Die Elbe is female, btw.
Am I right in assuming that names of rivers are more stable than those of mountains? I can think of whole regions whose names are younger than 300 years (Teutoburger Wald, Schsische Schweiz), and besides the Alps and the Eifel I actually can't think of any mountains in Germany - incl. the East, even the parts now belonging to Poland, and the former Sudeten areas - whose names wouldn't be perfectly understandable to me.
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Aelfgifu
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Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 14:07 |
Originally posted by yan
Die Elbe is female, btw.
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Ah, bummer, so much for the smart-ass theory... If only I could remember where I read it...
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
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Guests
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Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 17:48 |
Yes, rivers, hills, valleys and other natural features keep their names even when the language of the country changes. Cities tend to mutate theirs name with time.
All over the Americas, particularly in Latin America, there are plenty of Amerindian names that identify lakes, hills and sectors. In my country there is a nice lake in shape of a S, called Vichuquen, for instance ("Lake in the shape of a serpert", In Mapuche native language). However, most people (which speak Spanish) has no clue of the meaning, but the original name persist. There are even placenames for which the original language become extint, but the names are still in place.
It is funny, but unlike in Latin America, where the placenames are in Native languages, in the U.S. the names in Spanish are quite common, particularly in the South West, but not only there: Florida, Colorado, Nevada, Los Angeles, Texas (Tejas) and thousand of other names are in Spanish and come from the times those regions were part of the Spanish Empire or Mexico.
In Canada, the provinces of Saskatchewan, the cities of Saskatoon and Ottawa, and the name of the country comes from Native American languages.
Pinguin
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yan.
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Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 03:51 |
I'm a bit sceptical about names of hills and landscapes. Where I live, there are quite a number of examples where the names apparently appeared rather recently. And a lot of mountains have german names, even though the names of surrounding settlements, creeks and rivers are mostly of slav origin.
Maybe people used to care much less about mountains than about rivers in older times?
Edited by yan. - 19-Oct-2006 at 03:52
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Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 08:58 |
Well, I believe it depends on culture. In the Americas, both in Anglo and Latin Americas, it is quite common to stay with the ancient names of the places, particularly lakes, rivers, forest, valleys and mountains. There are even dictionaries of place-names so people can grasp the ancient meanings. Somehow, place names are considered a national patrimony.
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Aelfgifu
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Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 10:21 |
Namzes sometimes also change by translation. So the new name may sound very different, but be in fact a translation of the old name into the language of the new people.
Of course this only applies to names that make a certain amount of sense...
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
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