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spartan or samurai
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Poll Question: who is the more admirable "never surrender attitude"
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
646 [46.54%]
742 [53.46%]
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Ulrich Wolff View Drop Down
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Posts: 121 		  Quote Ulrich Wolff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: spartan or samurai
    Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 15:17
"Yes Ulrich, you are right that the Spartans did not have or even know how to create steel armour. However, it is a complete understatement to say they only used cloth/linen armour. They had bronze cuirasses, leg greaves, helmets.etc. Does anyone know if they used iron at any stage? "

They used iron helmets at one time I believe.

I'm fairly certain bronze cuirass was used by men of rank, but the greaves were standard for file men I believe. The thing with samurai is they study where to strike not just how to strike. I am aware of a kata that  stabs a man through his right eye (to get around helmet protection) another to slice open the armpit severing vital arteries(where there is often little armor), the man would die in minutes. There are many more that go around armor, they practice these daily until it becomes as natural as walking.


Edited by Ulrich Wolff - 27-Sep-2007 at 15:18
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pekau View Drop Down
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 19:44
Originally posted by Crystall

Well you guys give the samuri an unfair advantage. He gets a HORSE, not to mention both bow/arrow and sword.
 
Take away the horse and the bow.. then we should talk about who wins.
 
Take away the bow? Why? Spartans could have used the bows too!
 
I guess there is some truth about this unfairness. Spartans and samurai will have to use same type of bow.
 
And there's the sword issue too. Spartan weapons are quite outdated compared to Japanese sword. Samurai will be much better armed and equpied only because of different timeline.
 
And jeeze, take away the horse? Can you argue that Mongolians only had good fighters because they had horse? Adapting to environment is vital to survivor. If samurai can fight more effectively because they had horses and Spartans didn't... why would that be unfair? Does war have to be fair? NO, war's whole purpose is to win.
 
And guys, I just noticed that we got off topic for some time now. Question was who is the more admirable "never surrender attitude"? Not who was better fighter or whatever people are saying... It's the belief we are supposed to be arguing, not the battle formation, tactic, skill or whatever you guys are arguing in circles about.Confused
     
   
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rider View Drop Down
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Posts: 4664 		  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 21:24
The swords of the samurai were crafted rather well. They would most likely be fast enough to cut through the natural openings in any phalanx or the sides that warriors leave open personally.

I have a feeling that instead of this, a honest and unbiased discussion could be made perhaps? I'd have this one closed down then...
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pekau View Drop Down
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 05:05

It will be great if this was closed. First of all, the poll is completely screwed up (Anyone want to deny this?) We can't answer who was more admirable "never surrender attitude" thingy... both Spartans and samurai fought for their sense of honor and beauty of war... and asking people who never experienced battle, those that live in relative peace and order, to decide who was more admirable "never surrender attitude" is HYPOCRISY!

 
     
   
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SuN. View Drop Down
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Posts: 156 		  Quote SuN. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 10:48
Originally posted by pekau

It will be great if this was closed. First of all, the poll is completely screwed up (Anyone want to deny this?) We can't answer who was more admirable "never surrender attitude" thingy... both Spartans and samurai fought for their sense of honor and beauty of war... and asking people who never experienced battle, those that live in relative peace and order, to decide who was more admirable "never surrender attitude" is HYPOCRISY!

 


The poll is perfectly intellectual. By the above mentioned yardsticks, a lot of the matter on this forum may be out of place.
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rider View Drop Down
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Posts: 4664 		  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 15:13
Are these options comparable?:

samurai who rather kill himself than let others kill him.
spartan who fights to the death.

First of all, the Samurai (as mentioned previously here) chose to commit suicide only when disgraced not because he didn't want to take opponents down. The Spartan Hoplite would likewise be fighting to his death... but still for his life. The general build of this poll is wrong. If the question were:

Who is a better warrior?
The Spartan Hoplite
The Samurai

Then that would be an acceptable way of creating a poll. The poll creator has however originally risen the Spartan and lowered the Samurai in the original poll so the user can't have an opinion of his own. That's why all the persons having voted here for the Samurai show that it is an unfair poll centered on the Spartans and sure in it's victory. Plus, the option of multireplying is allowed which a decent poll should lack. For the sake of being right, this poll is wrong. I'd like to know how many times have the Spartan voters voted? 100? Two days ago, the poll was at 100 votes for the Samurai. The next day it was 50 votes past Samurai... Today it is nearly 150 for the Samurai again... If every person had voted once.. Well, wouldn't that be a wonder? Tongue


Edited by rider - 28-Sep-2007 at 15:14
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Yiannis View Drop Down
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Posts: 2329 		  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 16:10
Originally posted by Ulrich Wolff

The Spartans didn't even know how to create steel. They used a cloth armor made out of layers of reinforced linen.
 
Not really, Greeks in general (Spartans did not use different weapons and armor than the other Greek heavy infantry hoplites) used bronze armor (steel was not invented at that time, it is a much later invention).
 
They used  bronze breastplates and when they fought in warmer climates (Asia and Egypt) they developed the "linothorax" a breastplate that was consisted of several processed layers of linen that provided adequate protection and was not as warm as bronze. (plus it was cheaper)
 
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pekau View Drop Down
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2007 at 04:26
Originally posted by SuN.

The poll is perfectly intellectual. By the above mentioned yardsticks, a lot of the matter on this forum may be out of place.
 
Allow me to quote Rider's post to prove that you are totally wrong...
 
Originally posted by rider

Then that would be an acceptable way of creating a poll. The poll creator has however originally risen the Spartan and lowered the Samurai in the original poll so the user can't have an opinion of his own. That's why all the persons having voted here for the Samurai show that it is an unfair poll centered on the Spartans and sure in it's victory. Plus, the option of multireplying is allowed which a decent poll should lack. For the sake of being right, this poll is wrong. I'd like to know how many times have the Spartan voters voted? 100? Two days ago, the poll was at 100 votes for the Samurai. The next day it was 50 votes past Samurai... Today it is nearly 150 for the Samurai again... If every person had voted once.. Well, wouldn't that be a wonder? Tongue
     
   
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pekau View Drop Down
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2007 at 04:34
Originally posted by Yiannis

Originally posted by Ulrich Wolff

The Spartans didn't even know how to create steel. They used a cloth armor made out of layers of reinforced linen.
 
Not really, Greeks in general (Spartans did not use different weapons and armor than the other Greek heavy infantry hoplites) used bronze armor (steel was not invented at that time, it is a much later invention).
 
They used  bronze breastplates and when they fought in warmer climates (Asia and Egypt) they developed the "linothorax" a breastplate that was consisted of several processed layers of linen that provided adequate protection and was not as warm as bronze. (plus it was cheaper)
 
IPB%20Image
 
 
Once again, we are getting off topic. Confused
 
To end the argument though, I will have to say samurai will be superior in that sense. Samurai possessed iron and steel sword that is vastly superior to Spartan weapons. Samurai possessed shortsword while Japanese perferred longsword. Their armor is better armed than Spartans. Samurai could easily slice his way into Spartan formation after shower of arrows. Spartan shield may hold, but helmet will not hold. Plus, Spartans did not cover their legs. Samurai' superior archory skill to knock out the outermost formation, and flank the Spartans with fast agile longsword attack. Spartans will not survive this.
 
But this is an unfair thing to look at, as I have said before. Samurai are aeons ahead of Spartans' time. Spartans lived in Bronze Age, Samurai lived prodominately in iron age. Will be bother to argue whether SAS is better or British Expeditionary Force?
 
Seriously, lock this forum. We are going in circle nowhere to  answer the question (White knight is the one to blame the most for distracting question and many others for staying off-topic.) This is not intelligent debate or  historically amusing. This forum must die.
     
   
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rider View Drop Down
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Posts: 4664 		  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2007 at 08:35
Hey hey... You are going too far. Lock this topic perhaps, but not this forum...
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pekau View Drop Down
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 03:39
Originally posted by rider

Hey hey... You are going too far. Lock this topic perhaps, but not this forum...
 
Incorrect wording, my bad...Wink Of course, it's the topic, not the entire forum...
     
   
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Piedmon_Sama View Drop Down
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Posts: 0 		  Quote Piedmon_Sama Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2007 at 21:47

Inasfar as the elite soldiery of either nation goes, I admire the Spartan ethos more.   While a Samurai was focused on his own honor, the Spartan code was all about brotherhood and comraderie with the man next to you. 

That said, I admire the medieval Japanese civilization much more than the Spartan one.  When at their best, the Samurai Lords lived by the Confucian ideal of protecting the commoners, while the Spartans would literally kill their helots for sport.  Not to mention I can never admire any society that kills off all "unfit" infants.
 
Asking how the Spartans would match up to the Samurai in battle is no different than asking how a Samurai would perform against a rifleman.  The technological gap is too huge for a fair contest to be possible.
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Ponce de Leon View Drop Down
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Posts: 2967 		  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2007 at 21:49
Not really. If I had to choose between a spartan or samurai....SPARTANS!!! PREPARE FOR GLORY!!!
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Sun Tzu View Drop Down
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Posts: 362 		  Quote Sun Tzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 12:33
Originally posted by pekau

It will be great if this was closed. First of all, the poll is completely screwed up (Anyone want to deny this?) We can't answer who was more admirable "never surrender attitude" thingy... both Spartans and samurai fought for their sense of honor and beauty of war... and asking people who never experienced battle, those that live in relative peace and order, to decide who was more admirable "never surrender attitude" is HYPOCRISY!

 
Yeah your right, we are looking at a difference of like a thousand years, alot can change in a millenia with battlefield tactics and strategy.
But I think what he meant like their mental strength and inner warrior and right there, it would be a tossup.
 
The Reason why I chos Spartans though is because they died swinging, while the Samurai would take his own life (which to me is a coward's way out).


Edited by Sun Tzu - 13-Dec-2007 at 13:07
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pekau View Drop Down
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2007 at 00:44
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon

Not really. If I had to choose between a spartan or samurai....SPARTANS!!! PREPARE FOR GLORY!!!
 
If being massacred by the arrows is glory... then Spartans get all the glory they want. I rather be one of the samurai shooting arrows..Wink
 
 
     
   
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Darius of Parsa View Drop Down
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Posts: 599 		  Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2007 at 02:53

A Spartan-Samurai duel has nothing to do with what the topic is asking. It is asking what attitude is more admirable, not a battle between the two.
What is the officer problem?
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pekau View Drop Down
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2007 at 05:13
Originally posted by Darius of Parsa

A Spartan-Samurai duel has nothing to do with what the topic is asking. It is asking what attitude is more admirable, not a battle between the two.

 
If you look through the past posts, you will understand how some of us simply can't read or refuse to read the title. Confused
     
   
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