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1984 Anti-Sikh Riots

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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 1984 Anti-Sikh Riots
    Posted: 18-Aug-2006 at 07:05
Originally posted by malizai_

Ok, so was it hindus vs muslims or was it gujratis vs muslims?


Of course it was hindus versus muslims, thats my point. It was Gujaratis vs Gujaratis, and why? Because one group assumed the other group attacked them first and therefore attacked the muslims, who in turn, attacked back.

The point i'm trying to make is, muslims fought too, not only hindus. In the end it was Gujaratis who killed Gujaratis, another dark moment in our history. Especially in Gujarat where before independance both communities lived in relative peace (communities not armies).
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 05:41
why is it hard for the world to digest the fact that a country of the hindus wants to become hindus(and of other indian-born relgions with due respect). Why do u wanna stop us. It would be a homeland and a father for the all the hindu races of the world. I m a pakistani hindu, and we dont have a father nation. Whom shall we depend on--''nepal''??!! We need a land for all hindus united and safe in their area. Th partition has happened, now we want our right. There have been more number of hindu-killings in india then in current pakistan. Are we hindus not safe in our own land??? I m a sindhi, by ancestaral 5000 yr old ancient hindu land is now under pakistan and mohajirs, i cant do anything. We feel scared to go to the temple. bUT WHEN WE CAME TO BOMBAY WE COULD see MUSLIMS ROAMING ABOUT FREELY AND EVEN SOMETIMES KILLING HINDUS!. If today after 1200 yrs of supression we want to speak out for our rights--the missionaries and islamic forces want to stop us!!
to achieve a full hindu india it is but necessary to stop  the terorist operations and the missionaries. If for that if i had to be fundamentalists--then yess i would be. I accept that i m an extremist! because i believe my cause is right. The missionaries brainwash average local hindus, who have no knowledge about sanatana dharma. This has to stopped. We are a poor nation to go around preaching vedas in every nook and conner, so it hink it would be best to shoot down every missionary and terrorist. I think islam is right in its terrorism. It believes in its fundamentals and is protecting its people and land, if u ponder over what has been done to them. We can place ourselves in that context, and if we analyse the situation--then i believ it is essential for every hindu to be fanatic, fundamentalist and freedom fighter or as others may call it terrorist.
My uncles and all came to bombay many years back. The most stunning event we have witnessed is that, they were been injured in mumbai(india) during the riots of hindu-muslims, and we are safe here in karachi(paksitan). I feel like laughing at the situation of the hindus. I m not here to speak agaisnt any religion, but to ask for a land for our defense and not to offend others. We juss wanna defend ourselves in our land. Nagaland has become christian n demands a new state! tamil nadu has massive christian population--when will a second swami-vivekananda come?? when will there be a new dayanand saraswati!! its we hoo can make it possible!!
fight o ye all the hindus, unto the last drop of your blood is yet fresh red!!
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jai jinendra!
budham sharanam gachami! dhamam sharanam gacchhami! sangham sharanam gachhami!
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 19:13
I consider that to be an encouragement and incitement to violence against other people which is in breech of AE's code of conduct.

This is an unoffical warning.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 21:43
i appologize for the comments--but its true!
i sincerely do applogize but have no regrets for what i have writen
i have just written what i feel is rite
i spoke for a land which i believe should be mine and where i feel free
if it has hurt any one then i do appologize sincerely.
i have no hostility towards any other religion or race, but i spoke for the defense of me and my people.
In any case if it has hurt any one, then i appologize genuinely.
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 21:47
Originally posted by Aakash

bUT WHEN WE CAME TO BOMBAY WE COULD see MUSLIMS ROAMING ABOUT FREELY AND EVEN SOMETIMES KILLING HINDUS!.
 
Roaming round free eh? Perhaps they should be chained up Confused 
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  Quote Jay. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 18:44
The nationalism on this board is just growing and growing...
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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 19:11
meh, it has it's ups and downs. I've been here for just over 2 and a half years and it tends to follow a cycle for me, either that or i just learnt to blank it out.
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 01:57
Originally posted by Master_Blaster

The anti-Sikh riots were a government pogram anchored by vigilantes of the Hindu right. These Hindu extremists were also responsible for the anti-Muslim rights in Gujurat in 2002 and the anti-untouchable and anti-Christian violence which occurs regularly there.


Whoever this Master blaster is, he does'nt know about India. The riots were orchestrated by the Congress (indira gandhi,s party). Everybody who is in India or knows about India knows who is the nationalist party. A the time of the riots & ever since, the nationalist party has been the only one which has fought for the rights of the affected sikhs.

And further the parties blamed for the gujarat & sikh riots are entirel different & opposite. So much for your similarity.

Master blaster, you should at least use the google to do some homework before making posts.
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 02:25
Originally posted by Master_Blaster

Originally posted by Digvijay

Originally posted by Master_Blaster

The anti-Sikh riots were a government pogram anchored by vigilantes of the Hindu right. These Hindu extremists were also responsible for the anti-Muslim rights in Gujurat in 2002 and the anti-untouchable and anti-Christian violence which occurs regularly there.
Nonsense!

I would reply to your point one by one in bold :

Are you you denying that the government of India was complicit in the anti-Sikh riots in 1984,

Yes it was partly, because the riots were led by the a section of persons in power themselves. But it lasted for a very short time as remedial measures were taken immiediately. otherwise the casualties would have been in millions, such was the popularity of Indira Gandhi !

the anti-Muslim riots in 2002

There were no anti muslim riots in 2002. these were Hindu muslim riots or if you go literally anti hindu riots. The reason was that muslims in a gujarat town burnt two full crowded bogies of Hindu pilgrms returning from pilgrimage massacring near about a thousand hindus. Most of these people were from Ahmedabad. When the funeral procession of these massacred hindus was passing through some muslim localities in Ahmedabad, disputes broke out between the muslims & Hindus as the Hindus were chanting anti pakistan slogans & muslims objected to this.

This was the start of the gujarat riots.

and the numerous anti-Christian slayings which occur throughout India even today?

The few stray cases of anti christianism which occur in India are due to the forcefull & induced conversion of poor tribals into christianity by the christian missionaries.

Are you denying that Hindu extremist groups such as the Shiva Sena, RSS, and VHP, do not exist

Yes, they do exist. But they are in no way extremist groups. they belong to the nationalistic party of India called the BJP.

and propogate the establishment of a Hindu only nation in India?

If anybody knows about their ideology, it is to promote Faithful alliegance to india. All these groups also have Muslim members & patronisers. These parties are not against Muslims, they are against traitors & those who harm the country's interests. If most of the terrorists & traitors turn out to be muslims, it's not the fault of these parties.

The biggest ideological enemy of these parties are Indian leaders like Nehru, Gandhi etc..not muslims.

Are you also denying that the previous government of India, the BJP, was wholly comprised of anti-Muslim neoconservative Hindus who did not make an effort to stop the killings of Muslims in Gujurat 2002 by extremist Hindu groups?

Yes, I am denying that. How can one say that the government did not take steps ? The muslim population in Gujarat is only 12-14%, the rest is Hindu. How do you think the rioting stopped ? Were these 12-14% muslims powerful enough to force the hindus 86% hindus to stop the rioting. It was the government that did this dear.

The riots were not started by the hindu groups as you claim. They were started by the muslims. And the near & dear ones of those hindus who were massacred by the muslims in the illfated train retaliated.

The riots gained prominant coverage because till recently, whenever there would be a riot, it would be an muslim affair with most of the deaths being of the Hindus. But under the leadership of the nationalistic parties, the hindus had learned to retaliate.



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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 02:27
Originally posted by Jay.

Yes, the Khalistan movement and the violence it entailed claimed the lives of a total of 11,694 civilians between 1981-1993, including 7,139 Sikhs, or so says Wikipedia.


The killed fell into three categories :

1.   Terrorists
2.   Police forces
3.   Innocents massacred by the terrorists
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 02:51
Please read the bold letters for the explanation dear

Originally posted by Master_Blaster

The Sikhs were killed in 1984 and throughout the 1980s and early part of the 1990s

It was the sikh terrorists who were killed, because they were killing the police & innocent civilians. Everynation would do the same, like pak did in Bugti's case


 for the same reason that the Muslims were butched in Bombay during 1992-1993,

The sikh terrorists (not sikhs in general) were killed by the police because they were terrorising people to support them for an independednt khalistan. They were heavily armed & trained by pakistan like the taliban.

The mulsims were butchered in Bombay because they butchered hundreds of hindus in the worst ever serial bomb blasts in bombay.
Again this was an act where the terrorists were trained, armed & financed by pakistan. And again the spark was ignited by the burning of a hindu family in one of the suburbs of Mumbai & the murder of a few hindu taxi drivers in a muslim locality in Mumbai.
The retaliation by hindus was necessary because otherwise, thousands of more hindus would have been massacred by the muslims.

The perpretrators of the blasts are still in pakistan. the mastermind dawood Ibrahim has been declared by the US as one of the top 10 global terrorists & is living in pakistan. his daughter was recently married to the son of miandad, famous cricketer & celebrity of pakistan.
 and again in Gujurat in 2002.
 
Yes it was the same reason again. Muslims butchered 2 crowded bogies of hindu pilgrims returning from pilgrimage & did not allow their funeral procesion to pass through their localites. So the near & dear ones of the Hindus butchered had to retaliate.

The Hindu nationalists (read: neoconservative Hindus or extremist Hindus) want the establishment of a Hindu-only state in India.

This is wrong. point out any manifesto of any of these groups which says this. What they want is that traitors should be taught a lesson, something which every country would rightfully do.

 They have an inferiority complex and cannot come to grips with the fact that for 1,000 years, largely Hindu India was ruled by foreigners - first the Muslim Turks and then the Christian British. Now, they have c

Please point out one instance of this claim. the muslims ruled india only for 650 years & that too partly, not fully. Whereas the hindus ruled it forr more than 7000 years. 650 years is not a long time in the history of an ancient nation like India.

Infact if your statement is to be taken to be true, the Hidus should be happy with the British, for it was the british who threw over the muslim rule in india.
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 03:08
Originally posted by malizai_

Originally posted by Anujkhamar

An engineering report has said that the train seelf-ignited or something simlar, and was not torched. I have seen another report that says some muslims were harrassing thetrain but never lit it.

The Gujaratis back then rioted because they THOUGHT muslims killed innocents in the train. Although dispicable, this form of retaliation i would expect from any nation. Wouold there not be hate crimes in England if muslims torched a train (or so they thought)?
 
With all due respect, i dont want to seem to be splitting hairs. But I dont think the use of the term Gujratis is accurate in the given context. Since a large section of Gujratis are muslims themselves. The term used should be hindu extremists, rather than the Gujrati community.
 


Malizai, your logic is right, but unfortunatley the practical situation in india is different.

A hindu could call himself a gujrati or Punjabi or Malyalee or telgu or whatever depending upon the origin, but a muslim would call himself a muslim. That's the tragedy in india

Their are numerous other examples for eg. it is common amongst Muslim communities to celebrate the victory of pakistani cricket team over Indian cricket team.

Many of them refuse to sing vande mataram, which is the national song of india. Their are n number of fatwas to that effect.

Their were many instances of sweets being distributed in Muslim neighbourhoods after the serial bomb blasts killed hundreds of hindus in Mumbai & after the hindu pilgrims were torched to death in Gujarat. What do you expect from a resurgent hindu community in such cases?





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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 03:28
Why cant Indians reassert themselves or rediscover themselves ?
Show me a single muslim nation which does'nt have a national religion. Pakistan is the most vocal supporter of muslim rights in India, forgetting the fact that it is a for most times a theocratic state under some sort of dictatorship & was founded on the premise of religious extremism & lost bangladesh because of its linguistic extremism.

India has had number of Muslim heads of state, including the present one & muslims in ministry & government & private life. Can Pakistan demonstrate something equal or even nearly equal.

Everybody cries foul about the nationalistic party BJP saying it is anti muslim. But it was this party which single handedly got the present Muslim president elected against all hindu candidates, inspite of severe opposition form all other parties which are said to be pro muslim. because it supports nationalists & The present muslim president is an perfect idol  & role model of what the alleged indian nationalists want a person to be like.

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  Quote AP Singh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 08:25

The present President of India is truly secular, a top Space Research Scientist, a very popular personality specially among children and was acceptable to all the parties. I am sure he did not win even a single vote on the basis that he is a Muslim candidate and he is equally popular among all the people of India.  I am curious to know if BJP would have supported Shahi Imam of Jama Masjid as a Muslim candidate for the post of president to show that they are a nationalistic party? Certainly not.

All the parties in India are nationalistic and no one can claim that others are not nationalistic but some are more secular.Pakistan is not a secular state and probably a person of even this high credibility would not have been elected ( or selected) to the highest post if he is a non muslim but then Pakistan does not claim that they are secular.
 
 


Edited by AP Singh - 13-Sep-2006 at 08:28
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 08:44
Agree with you. Further I wonder if there would be any country other than india where the present president would be the role model of the educated & young alike. He is possibly the most respected by his people (as opposed to rallied) president in the world today.
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 08:45
And the most learned one possibly.
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 21:56
I hope you don't mind Vivek but I deleted your double post.


Their were many instances of sweets being distributed in Muslim neighbourhoods after the serial bomb blasts killed hundreds of hindus in Mumbai & after the hindu pilgrims were torched to death in Gujarat. What do you expect from a resurgent hindu community in such cases?

You can't judge the actions of extremists by the actions of the community. Nobody said there weren't good Hindus. Why are you trying to say there aren't bad ones?
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2006 at 01:15
Thanks for deleting the double post.

There would be bad people everywhere. Just that both Indian's & Pakistan's populations have mistaken the bad people for good & vice versa.


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