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Topic ClosedThey have the right to be Turkish
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Poll Question: Should people in Western Thrace be free to call themselves Turkish?
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10 [33.33%]
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Digenis View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 04:44
So,this ridiculous fixed propaganda picture isnt enough for a warning?Confused
The pontian genocide thread was closed for a "propaganda" picture
!Ouch

Greek government's attitude towards the muslim minority in thrace in 2006 is almost excellent.
The sad thing is that the turkish semi-democracy is trying for many decates to convert all the muslims of thrace ,and make them nationalist Turks.
The embassy of Komotini is doing a good work towards this aim.

A Pomak friend of mine,says that if someone of not turkish origin claims that he is not Turk,is being looked with suspicion and is isolated.

This attitude is obviously backed by the turkish governments-(look the recent visit of turkish politicians in Thrace)



Edited by Digenis - 21-Jun-2006 at 04:46
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Posts: 659 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 04:51
Originally posted by Dr Sadik Ahmet

But the Turkish community reports that important problems remain, chiefly involving education; expropriation of land; the selection of muftis, the religious leaders of the Moslem minority; and control of the wakfs (charitable foundations). Moreover, the Greek government continued during 1991 to deprive hundreds of ethnic Turks of their Greek citizenship. In addition, police harassment of ethnic Turks continues, although to a lesser degree. Associations and schools still cannot call themselves "Turkish," Turkish language newspapers, books and magazines cannot be brought from Turkey into Western Thrace, and Turkish television is still jammed. Moreover, ethnic Turks are discriminated against in employment and in the provision of services.

Source human rights watch


When you post a source I think it would be better to also post a link to this source. HRW from which year? We live in 2006 and you and BG are posting some HRW reports from the '90s. Don't you have sth more recent?


Some questions for you "Dr Sadik Ahmet":
Education: How many minority schools are there in W. Thrace?
Muftis: Where in the world are the muftis elected? Are muftis just religious leaders?
Wasn't your "article 19" abolished in the '90s or I am missing sth?

"The Greek state has for the most part been unable to accept the fact that one can be a loyal Greek citizen and, at the same time, an ethnic Turk proud of his or her culture and religion (Source Human Rights Watch)."
If you post it once more it will be called spamming...

Every individual has the right to call himself Turk and this right is totally respected by the Hellenic State. However, the Muslim minority in Thrace is not entirely turkish, so those who try to make it as such are against human rights themselves.
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Posts: 2329 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 05:03
Originally posted by Dr Sadik Ahmet

[
 
By beaten to death I ment that this person during the events was beaten so much by the Greek police that he was left on the ground thought dead. The person was immidiately taken to the hospital and was without show of life which remained so for weeks. But he won his fight of life and recovered.
 
 
Source and name please.
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Posts: 28 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 05:04
Originally posted by Antioxos

Originally posted by Bulldog

 
I cannot believe that this is even being argued after 25 years of Greece being a part of the EU.

25 years and this ridiculous crime against everything the EU stands for has been ignored, the most simple and basic human right which is to be allowed to express your identity and have free speech.

Does Greece not realise what the EU is "supposed" to be all about.

This is disgusting, to even think there are people who can have the audacity to argue against people being able to express who they are.

This is a gross violation of EU law, how can people not be allowed to express with safety who and what they are.

The Turks and other minorities of Greece should organise themselves and file a serious complaint to the EU.

If these minorities are unable to do so due to Greek state intervention of their rights than surrounding countries like Albania, Macedonia, soon to be Kosovo, Turkey should organise human rights groups and organisations for these minorities to help them. This is only a "forum" and the sheer level of unbelievable denial and oppression of people's rights being shown is shocking, if its this bad in a forum I can't begin to imagine what it's like in real life.
 
If you don t know the subject and you don t have sources
I dont think that we are interested to read your stories.
Well The European Court of human rights  throw out the  case
brought by the late Sadik Ahmet alleging discrimination by the
government of Greece against its Turkish minority.
The link with the decision
 
 
 
Dr Sadik Ahmet  was never interested about human rights
the only think was interest is to change the religious minority
to ethnic minority and create the conditions for new Cyprus in W.T
(with the guideline of Turkish consulate).
The interesting is the name of the street in Constantinople that passes in front of the Patriarchy is named after Satrazam Ali Pasha. He is of course the Pasha who ordered the hanging of Patriarch Grigorio the Fifth. After the announcement of the death of Sadik, the Turkish government decided to rename the above mentioned street in honor of Ahmet Sadik! It seems that Sadik was a better anti-Hellene than the Pasha that murdered the ecumenical Patriarch.
I never heard for example about Dr Mustafa Mustafa and his fight about human rights
in Turkey and in Greece or he is less Turk than Dr Sadik Ahmet .
Everybody is free in Greece to say that is Turk but not to go against
the international and Domestic law (and the European Court of human rights) and to cange with force the minority from religious to ethnic.
I suggest  everybody (my self also)to stop posting what we dreamed yesterday.If we have something to post to give at least one source
(a web site and not generally to mention the source) 
like this for example
 
 
The flag of the W.T. (doesnt muter if the area belong to Greece)
In my next post i will continue about human rights in W.T.
I ll also determine which from the previous post are lies (with proves).
Does any from Turkey can post about the today human rights of the Greek minority in Turkey.
 
1) First of all this topic has nothing to do with Turkey. Therefore, you are kindly requested to stop talking about them. Moreover, you are trying to draw people on a subject that has been banned (Greek-Turkish) as we are talking about the Turkish Minority in Greece and about the violations on their human rights.
 
2) Westrn Thrace used to be a authonomus area such as cataluna in late 18th century under rule of Ottoman Empire and naturally had a flag which used to represent the area. However, there is no relation between the flag and the minority. If you are trying to say that the Turkish Minority is trying to estanblish a new country in the area you are kindly requested to provide sources and actions that will justify you. Otherwise it will be a big lie of yours.
 
3) I never heart someone talking about Dr Sadik Ahmet's Court of Human Rights case. However, check this out,
 
"717
14.12.99
Press release issued by the Registrar
JUDGMENT IN THE CASE OF SERIF v. GREECE
In a judgment[fn] delivered at Strasbourg on 14 December 1999 in the case of Serif v. Greece, the European Court of Human Rights held unanimously that there had been a violation of Article 9 (freedom of thought, conscience and religion) of the European Convention on Human Rights. Under Article 41 (just satisfaction) of the Convention, the Court awarded the applicant 2,700,000 Greek drachmas in respect of pecuniary and non-pecuniary damage." source http://www.echr.coe.int/eng/press/1999/dec/serif%20jud%20epresse.htm
 
4) I am afraid for all the other Pasha and hanging stuff I have to ignore you as the Patriarchy is still in service. Moreover, Turkey is a free country and can name any street and any square anything they want. Furthermore, I used to live on the street Adrianoupoleos (Edirne) in Komotini which was named so. Shall I believe that the Greek have an ideology to take back the city. This will be ridiculous and you above statement.
 
5) Please let us concentrate on the subject and try to understand that the treaty was made between Greece and Turkey, and any representative of the Minority has the natural right to visit Turkey in order to talk about their rights. No record of the opposite exists such as establishment of a new country in the area which would be ridiculous as we are loyal Greek citizens.


Edited by Dr Sadik Ahmet - 21-Jun-2006 at 05:13
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Posts: 28 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 05:09
Originally posted by Yiannis

Originally posted by Dr Sadik Ahmet

[
 
By beaten to death I ment that this person during the events was beaten so much by the Greek police that he was left on the ground thought dead. The person was immidiately taken to the hospital and was without show of life which remained so for weeks. But he won his fight of life and recovered.
 
 
Source and name please.
 
Makedonia newspaper 31.01.1990 check the line under the photo it is in Greek.
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Posts: 2329 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 05:14
Yes, but where did you find it? Link please.
 
I can show you hundreds of photos of people who are injured in clashes between Greek police and demonstrators.
 
You show a picture of a beaten (thank God, not bitten) demonstratoir in 1990 to prove what?
 
NOW PROVIDE THE LINK WHERE YOU COPIED THE PICTURE FROM.
 
 
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Posts: 28 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 05:20
Originally posted by Yiannis

Yes, but where did you find it? Link please.
 
I can show you hundreds of photos of people who are injured in clashes between Greek police and demonstrators.
 
You show a picture of a beaten (thank God, not bitten) demonstratoir in 1990 to prove what?
 
NOW PROVIDE THE LINK WHERE YOU COPIED THE PICTURE FROM.
 
 
 
There you go Yannis,
This is the source a local newspaper where you can find some interesting stuff about the minority.
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Posts: 28 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 05:24
Originally posted by Digenis

So,this ridiculous fixed propaganda picture isnt enough for a warning?Confused
The pontian genocide thread was closed for a "propaganda" picture
!Ouch

Greek government's attitude towards the muslim minority in thrace in 2006 is almost excellent.
The sad thing is that the turkish semi-democracy is trying for many decates to convert all the muslims of thrace ,and make them nationalist Turks.
The embassy of Komotini is doing a good work towards this aim.

A Pomak friend of mine,says that if someone of not turkish origin claims that he is not Turk,is being looked with suspicion and is isolated.

This attitude is obviously backed by the turkish governments-(look the recent visit of turkish politicians in Thrace)

 
This is no propaganda at all, we provide sources. Please get involved in healing the current violation in your own with your own people and let the neighbors alone.
 
I provide you sources (HRW) that the Minority wants to be called TURKISH MINORITY (check my previous updates) and you are telling me stories. I wonder who is to be banned here...
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Posts: 2329 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 05:29
Originally posted by Dr Sadik Ahmet

 
There you go Yannis,
This is the source a local newspaper where you can find some interesting stuff about the minority.
 
This is incredible!!! How hard is it for you to understand that for the past posts I'm asking you for the link to the source, meaning to the actual freaking photo in whatever site you have found it in???
 
Jesus!
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Posts: 694 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 05:34
The minority wants to be called turksih minority?
What kind of nonsence is this?

Half (or more) of the minority people are Pomaks,and muslim Gypsies.
Are you sure for them,or even for all that have turkish ancestry,that want to be called as total as "turkish minority"?

This is your wish,and the turkish governments wish of course..

As an individual everybody can call himself as he wishes,as for the total minority,which is a mix of people of diferent origin with a common religion,
its recognized by a treaty that is a religious minority.
Accepting it or not,this is the international law.

Unless you think you have the right given by God ,to define the national identity of all the muslim Greek citizens which live in Thrace.
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Posts: 28 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 05:37
Originally posted by Neoptolemos

Originally posted by Dr Sadik Ahmet

But the Turkish community reports that important problems remain, chiefly involving education; expropriation of land; the selection of muftis, the religious leaders of the Moslem minority; and control of the wakfs (charitable foundations). Moreover, the Greek government continued during 1991 to deprive hundreds of ethnic Turks of their Greek citizenship. In addition, police harassment of ethnic Turks continues, although to a lesser degree. Associations and schools still cannot call themselves "Turkish," Turkish language newspapers, books and magazines cannot be brought from Turkey into Western Thrace, and Turkish television is still jammed. Moreover, ethnic Turks are discriminated against in employment and in the provision of services.

Source human rights watch


When you post a source I think it would be better to also post a link to this source. HRW from which year? We live in 2006 and you and BG are posting some HRW reports from the '90s. Don't you have sth more recent?


Some questions for you "Dr Sadik Ahmet":
Education: How many minority schools are there in W. Thrace?
Muftis: Where in the world are the muftis elected? Are muftis just religious leaders?
Wasn't your "article 19" abolished in the '90s or I am missing sth?

"The Greek state has for the most part been unable to accept the fact that one can be a loyal Greek citizen and, at the same time, an ethnic Turk proud of his or her culture and religion (Source Human Rights Watch)."
If you post it once more it will be called spamming...

Every individual has the right to call himself Turk and this right is totally respected by the Hellenic State. However, the Muslim minority in Thrace is not entirely turkish, so those who try to make it as such are against human rights themselves.
 
1) As long as there are continious violations we will be posting them. Please read below,
 
"CONTINUING VIOLATIONS
 
Denial of Ethnic Identity
While many of the improvements that the Greek government has made are substantive and not merely cosmetic, the Turkish minority continues to face a number of serious problems. At the root of these problems is the Greek governments attitude toward the Turkish minority as somehow alien to Greece, as an outside threat that must be minimized or isolated. The most obvious sign of this is the continued state policy of denying the ethnic identity of the minority, which, whether acquired by birth or through acculturation, is undoubtedly Turkish."
 
2) Well there are many but the education level is so poor that it would be better not to have them at all. All teachers are graduate of Academy of Thessaloniki and they cannot command the Turkish Language. The idea is not to educate at all.
 
3) Can you tell me something, what would you do if I was to sellect Mr Christodoulou for you your religious leader? You will find about it in HRW.
 
4) Article 19 is not being practised but it is in use still. Moreover, there are thousands of people waiting abroad to come back to their country. The trials still continiue.
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Posts: 28 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 05:39
Originally posted by Yiannis

Originally posted by Dr Sadik Ahmet

 
There you go Yannis,
This is the source a local newspaper where you can find some interesting stuff about the minority.
 
This is incredible!!! How hard is it for you to understand that for the past posts I'm asking you for the link to the source, meaning to the actual freaking photo in whatever site you have found it in???
 
Jesus!
 
What makes you speak like that. The source is above there and you can go through. Check photos.
 
You can also check this site out but it is in Turkish.


Edited by Dr Sadik Ahmet - 21-Jun-2006 at 05:40
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Posts: 28 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 05:47
Guys lets forget the differences of the past and try to find a solution. Please can anybody tell me if each individual of the Minority has the right to be called Turk or Turkish?
 
Awaiting your posts.
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"Dr sadik ahmet"....
hm.... smells like old good "Bg_turk"....

Different members?Ermm


Edited by Digenis - 21-Jun-2006 at 05:48
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Posts: 28 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 05:51
Originally posted by Digenis

The minority wants to be called turksih minority?
What kind of nonsence is this?

Half (or more) of the minority people are Pomaks,and muslim Gypsies.
Are you sure for them,or even for all that have turkish ancestry,that want to be called as total as "turkish minority"?

This is your wish,and the turkish governments wish of course..

As an individual everybody can call himself as he wishes,as for the total minority,which is a mix of people of diferent origin with a common religion,
its recognized by a treaty that is a religious minority.
Accepting it or not,this is the international law.

Unless you think you have the right given by God ,to define the national identity of all the muslim Greek citizens which live in Thrace.

 
Well yes we accept the fact that we are Muslims. But the problem you see with our ethnicity. Do you think we are Greek-Muslims? No, we are not, we are clearly declaring that and awaiting the answer of Greek Goverment on that.
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Posts: 28 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 05:55
Originally posted by Digenis

"Dr sadik ahmet"....
hm.... smells like old good "Bg_turk"....

Different members?Ermm
 
You are just ... I do not know. Now and on I will just ignore your posts as you are just trying to accuse people.
 
He is from Bulgaria and knows stuff about Bulgaria. I do not have a clue. I am proud Greek citizen (in exile) and Turkish in origin who knows all about the Minority.
 
Now and on posts of Digenis will be ignored by Dr Sadik Ahmet...


Edited by Dr Sadik Ahmet - 21-Jun-2006 at 05:56
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Posts: 4361 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 05:56
The topic has reached the end of its natural life.
I don't think we will gain any new insights from a further exchange of niceties.
 
(And no, I'm not Greek!)
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
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