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xi_tujue 
Arch Duke 
Atabeg Joined: 19-May-2006 Location: Belgium Online Status: Offline Posts: 1919 |
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 Topic: KatanaPosted: 10-Jun-2006 at 07:50 |
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what do you know about the katana japanese samurai sword when was it invented is it so superior to other swords. Is it true that it atleast took 3 moths to make one. any imformation is great
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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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Paul
General 
AE Immoderator Joined: 21-Aug-2004 Location: Hyperborea Online Status: Offline Posts: 952 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 09:05 |
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The Katana wasn't invented, it just evolved from earlier Japanese swords.
All factors we associate with a katana would have started to become the norm in the 16th century, shorter, heavier swords worn blade-up. However all these attributes existed in earlier swords (not necessarilty all three together) going back centuries.
It is in no way superior to other swords.
Three months is a very typical time for making one. Some can take more than a year. It's the polishing and ornaments that takes the time. Edited by Paul - 10-Jun-2006 at 09:15 |
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Light blue touch paper and stand well back
http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
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red clay
Administrator 
Tomato Master Emeritus Joined: 14-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 10226 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 09:47 |
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Paul is probably right about the katana evolving, however legend attributes the "invention" of the Katana to a Japanese swordsmith in the 7th cent. ad. What some believe is that the technique of "folding" was probably perfected at that time. Folding is the process by which the Iron or steel is heated then beaten, heated then folded over and beaten. this can be repeated as many as 200 times.
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown. |
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Paul
General
AE Immoderator Joined: 21-Aug-2004 Location: Hyperborea Online Status: Offline Posts: 952 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 10:08 |
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Folding was invented in China, probably around 600 BCE.
The technique the Japanese used moved from China to Korea and arrived in Japan probably in the 1st century BCE.
A later similar folding technique was developed also in China, called Patern Welding, in about 300BCE. This spread westwards and arrived in Europe about 0 BCE and continued to be used until about 1000CE in the North and West.
Folding is actully cutting, you hammer a piece of steel flat, cut it in half and place one half on top of another creating 2 layers. You them hammer this piece flat and repeat creating 4 layers and so on.
The best quality folding is usually done 12-16 times creating several thousand layers. After about 16 folds the quality of the steal starts to deteriorate.
If a sword was folded 200 hundred times each layer would be so thin effectively it would only be a couple of atoms thick, so the steel would be as crumbly as cake and each time a fold is made carbon is lost in the steel after so many folds it would no-longer be steel, but iron.
Crumbly iron swords never really took off outside the movie Highlander. Edited by Paul - 10-Jun-2006 at 10:10 |
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Light blue touch paper and stand well back
http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
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red clay
Administrator
Tomato Master Emeritus Joined: 14-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 10226 |
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Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 21:56 |
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Steel can be folded 200 times without quality being effected it depends on the quality of iron you start out with. Japanese iron in the 6-7 cent. was very crude with high levels of impurities. The time it took to fold steel meant that you had to have a particular reason to do it. The finest swords were folded an average of twenty times. that produced about 100,000 layers. the brittleness [crumbly] is controlled by the heat treating, a complex process which can produce a soft flexible inner core with a hard surface that can maintain an edge of incredible sharpness.
sources- Sword Forum International
BTW-didn't see that movie, just couple of bad episodes of the TV show  Edited by red clay - 10-Jun-2006 at 21:59 |
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown. |
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Imperator Invictus
Caliph 
Retired AE Administrator Joined: 07-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3151 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 22:09 |
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It would depend on the specifics of the folding. The purpose of it is
to induce carbon into the Iron lattice (which becomes steel), which
varies depending on the specific condition. Folding too many times
obviously doesn't help because there is a point at which carbon is
maximally diffused into the lattice.
The other important technique was differential quenching, which created the curved shape of the sword due to different phases of Iron present at the front and back edge. The cutting edge of the sword was comprised of martensite, a term that was not coined until modern times. |
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Paul
General
AE Immoderator Joined: 21-Aug-2004 Location: Hyperborea Online Status: Offline Posts: 952 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 10:19 |
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Well, I've never heard of a sword being folded 200 times and if there's a person on Sword International Forum saying it and not getting pilloried by the swordmakers on the forum, I'd like to read the topic. It would a be first for the forum....
Folding doesn't really depend on the quality of steel you start out with and good quality steel can't be folded more than poor.
Tamahage was very poor quality steel, in fact much was iron. The whole reason you fold steel is because it is poor quality, it diffuses the carbon and removes impurities.
Modern steel has few impurities and perfectly diffused carbon and well as the correct amount. Any folding done on good quality steel, lowers the quality of it not raises, thus is not done other than for artistic reasons.
Many techniques were use to make Japanese swords not one, often the folded steel was folded around an unfolded steel core to create a interior soft spine. The heat treating was done by using clay to control the speed which the steel cooled, making sure the spine remained flxible and soft. So only the edge would be made fully of hardened folded steel.
Any sword can be sharpened really sharp, that a Katana is sharper is purely an urban legend.
In the movie Sean Connery claims his sword was folded over 2000 times, which I believe would make each layer thinner than a single atom. Whicn means Rutherford was beaten by a couple of thousand years. Edited by Paul - 11-Jun-2006 at 10:22 |
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Light blue touch paper and stand well back
http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
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kingofmazanderan
Earl 
Joined: 24-Feb-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 265 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 17:21 |
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You guys sure have alot of good information can you send me the sources please?
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Paul
General
AE Immoderator Joined: 21-Aug-2004 Location: Hyperborea Online Status: Offline Posts: 952 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Jun-2006 at 20:55 |
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I learnt almost everything I know from here. I've been a member for longer than AE. Most of the best English speaking sword makers, expert collector, researchers and book writers in the world are on the site daily.
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Light blue touch paper and stand well back
http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
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Goban
Colonel 
Joined: 09-Mar-2006 Location: Subterranea Online Status: Offline Posts: 581 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Jun-2006 at 04:19 |
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I have been a sword forum member for a few years now as well. I always wondered how many of us were here on AE.
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The sharpest spoon in the drawer.
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Achilles
Pretorian 
Joined: 26-Jan-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 198 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Jun-2006 at 12:19 |
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Paul, I have seen a blacksmith fold a sword up to around 150 times, so yes it can be done
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Der Erste hat den Tod,
Der Zweite hat die Not, Der Dritte erst hat Brot. Fur immer frei und ungeteilt -always free and undivided- |
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Paul
General
AE Immoderator Joined: 21-Aug-2004 Location: Hyperborea Online Status: Offline Posts: 952 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Jun-2006 at 14:41 |
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Light blue touch paper and stand well back
http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
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