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Mongol invasions
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milns View Drop Down
Janissary
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Posts: 27 		  Quote milns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mongol invasions
    Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 11:31
Recently i've read an article about Chingis Han and his rise to power and it said that he was a puppet in the hands of China and even more that the Mongol empire was inspirated by merchants because of lack of power in teritorys near The Great Silk Road. Quite interesting version because the only who won in these wars was merchants, because mongols didn't made a unifide empire but made many allmost independet states with unitary laws and taxes, destroyed all borders both military and economicly. Need your opinion about this.

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Here is a link in case anyone can read latvian http://vesture.sauc.lv/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=58&Itemid=6
     
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xi_tujue View Drop Down
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Posts: 1919 		  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 12:10
i think you're right about that thet wern't unified befor cengis Han (genghis khan)
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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Imperator Invictus View Drop Down
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Posts: 3151 		  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 23:47
he was a puppet in the hands of China

No, not at all. In fact, the Mongols successfully manipulating the three struggling states in China (the Jin, Song, and Xi Xia) and eventually conquered all three.

the Mongol empire was inspirated by merchants because of lack of power in teritorys near The Great Silk Road

I don't know what you mean there. The Great Road was largly inactive during this time period. The Chinese had lost control of the Silk road after the Tang dynasty.

Quite interesting version because the only who won in these wars was merchants

Partially true. But the Mongol Empire had more effect than just in eocnomics. In war, "winners" and "losers" are not objective labels.

i think you're right about that thet wern't unified befor cengis Han (genghis khan)

Actually, the Mongols were mostly unified during the reigns of Kaidu and Kabul Khan, both of whom were before Genghis.
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milns View Drop Down
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Posts: 27 		  Quote milns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 04:23

Originally posted by Imperator Invictus


I don't know what you mean there. The Great Road was largly inactive
during this time period. The Chinese had lost control of the Silk road
after the Tang dynasty.

    Thats right, Chinese and all others lost their control and brigands gained control over The Great Silk Road. Merchents needed some power to who could deal with brigands. It was comparatively cheep to support the mongols
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Posts: 3151 		  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 08:57
So from what sources or evidence did the author use to support his thesis? I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Are you saying that merchants funded the Mongols?

Edited by Imperator Invictus - 05-Jun-2006 at 08:58
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milns View Drop Down
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Posts: 27 		  Quote milns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 12:54
Nop. But I say that it was their money who sponsored Mongol armys in the begining of Mongol conquest of the World.
* Путешествия в восточные страны Плано Карпини и Рубрука. – Москва, 1957
* Ata-Malik-Juvaini. The History of the World Conqueror. Trans. A.Boyle. - London, 1958.
* Ch’i-Ch’ing Hsiao, The Military Establishment of the Yuan Dynasty. Cambridge - Mass and London, 1978.
There are some of sources from mostly russian authors.
I am not saying it is true but it's one of many options how could it be. Genghis Khan was defeted several times befor he maneged to become a ruler of all Mongols, but after every defeat he maneged to rise up new army wich is quite hard if you have no money and power. The Mongols started to conquer the world in time when Gengis was 44, until then he was struggling for power. Many times he recieved money from somwhere and even reformed his army after crushing defeat. IMO it could be merchant organisation or maybe China.
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Seko View Drop Down
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Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 18:00
Originally posted by milns

Recently i've read an article about Chingis Han and his rise to power and it said that he was a puppet in the hands of China and even more that the Mongol empire was inspirated by merchants because of lack of power in teritorys near The Great Silk Road. Quite interesting version because the only who won in these wars was merchants, because mongols didn't made a unifide empire but made many allmost independet states with unitary laws and taxes, destroyed all borders both military and economicly. Need your opinion about this.

P.S.
Here is a link in case anyone can read latvian http://vesture.sauc.lv/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=58&Itemid=6
     
 
Trade by caravan, ambassadors bearing gifts and political swaps were a way of life for centuries prior to the Mongol conquests. The Chinese would rather barter and send goods to pacify the steppes instead of get into an outright war. At least before and after the Tang empire.
 
Originally posted by milns

Nop. But I say that it was their money who sponsored Mongol armys in the begining of Mongol conquest of the World.
* Путешествия в восточные страны Плано Карпини и Рубрука. Москва, 1957
* Ata-Malik-Juvaini. The History of the World Conqueror. Trans. A.Boyle. - London, 1958.
* Chi-Ching Hsiao, The Military Establishment of the Yuan Dynasty. Cambridge - Mass and London, 1978.
There are some of sources from mostly russian authors.
I am not saying it is true but it's one of many options how could it be. Genghis Khan was defeted several times befor he maneged to become a ruler of all Mongols, but after every defeat he maneged to rise up new army wich is quite hard if you have no money and power. The Mongols started to conquer the world in time when Gengis was 44, until then he was struggling for power. Many times he recieved money from somwhere and even reformed his army after crushing defeat. IMO it could be merchant organisation or maybe China.
 
Making political allliances and fighting rivals is a steppe tradition. The Chinese knew this yet they would often insult the nomads by expecting public displays of servitude. The Great Khan was ruler of the felt tents and not a vassal of the Ch'in or Sung. The Monols relationship with the Chinese was one of confrontation. Trading was a vehichle for the pursuit of warfare or peace at that time. Both sides savored such opportunistic advances.
 
Though the Turko/Mongol alliances were one of affinity, war, and commerce, their cultures were similar. 
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The Charioteer View Drop Down
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Posts: 735 		  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 21:19

Originally posted by Seko

The Monols relationship with the Chinese was one of confrontation.

By "Chinese" its originally referred to the Jin dynasty which was founded by Jurchens. At the time of Genghis, the relation between Jurchen and Mongols was one of confrontation. You can argue the similar situation with regard to earlier Khitan-Jurchen relation as well.

But when the Manchus established the Qing dynasty the relation between Mongol and "Chinese"(ie, Manchu as descendant of Jurchen) were one of co-operation.

Indeed, if by "Chinese" one mean ethnic Han, then early Chinese and Mongol relation(i.e, during the time of Genghis's rise) had been "co-operative" in the begining, but as Imperator put, its really a "manipulation". (btw, this rather twistedly show Chinese and Mongol relation was not necessary one of confrontation)
Still, its not necessarily interpreted as confrontation, even though its somewhat inevitable.
 
So the Mongol-"Chinese" relation should be variable, as it was a confrontation with Jin-Jurchen, then a co-operation with Qing-Manchu.


Edited by The Charioteer - 05-Jun-2006 at 21:24
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Imperator Invictus View Drop Down
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Posts: 3151 		  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 00:29
Many times he recieved money from somwhere and even reformed his army after crushing defeat. IMO it could be merchant organisation or maybe China.

Interesting theory, but I don't think there's any direct evidence for that. In general, steppe armies are built by charisma and leadership, not with money.
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Guests View Drop Down
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 04:00
Mongol Army were not run by money. Even you can not name it as an Army in modern term. Mongol Horde were military organised community who were often accompanied by their families.
 
little joke: - Ogedei Khaan was so much burdened by gold, he complained -- why we have to carry this heavy useless metall and  we have  guard it too. What a burden.
 
for Trading, Mongols were not tradesman at all. Under Mongol umbrella, merchants really made fortunes.
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