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Mila
Tsar
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Topic: A Muslim Woman Posted: 11-May-2006 at 22:16 |
A MUSLIM Woman
The Jasmina Exhibit, Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
The history of Muslim women is one of the most complicated, varied, and interesting chapters of the overall history of women.
The Islamic faith gave women rights at a time when they had none and
offered them entitlements and expressions of justice unrivaled by any
other societal structure until very recently.
At the same time, western women have now achieved and surpassed many of
the rights granted centuries ago to Muslim women and - on the surface -
it is easy to imagine Islam as a tool of oppression that victimizes
women.
At the same time, women have been granted rights contradictory to Islam
- for example, Bosnian women earning the right to drink alcohol in
public. At the same time, women have also been oppressed in ways not
dictated by Islam - for example, the Taliban regime's social order in
Afghanistan.
Muslim or non-Muslim, what is your view of Muslim women's place in the
history of the past and the society of today? What are your views about
how an Islamic woman does or should be expected to live?
Be as brutally honest as you want, but please be respectful. There is
an acceptable way to present any view not explicitly banned by the
rules of this forum.
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Ponce de Leon
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Posted: 11-May-2006 at 22:18 |
What is a muslim woman like?
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Mila
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Posted: 11-May-2006 at 22:34 |
I think one of the major contributions of Islamic women has been a
sense of community. You see it quite often in very patriarchial
cultures, Italy for example, and Colombia. A sense of unity and
community develops, extended families live in a single home, people
know their neighbors, and the home - the life of the home, the daily
tasks, all of these things - have a life and existence of their own.
In Islamic countries, regardless of how much or how little women are
able to participate in society as a whole, generally speaking no one
comes home just to go to bed. Home is not just a place, it is an entire
existence, an entire society of its own. When men are away for work,
the house didn't sit empty as it often does in modern times. There were
women, children, servants, and everything else creating a sense of
community that doesn't exist to the same extent elsewhere.
In terms of an Islamic woman's place in today's societies, I think
there is no reason why Islamic women - even in very (by my standards)
traditional nations - cannot participate fully. Mira is a wonderful
example of this, as is cahaya. They don't do many of the things I do,
they are not free in the same ways I am free and I doubt they look at
me and my life and even consider these things to be of any value. Yet
they have the same traits I like to think I have - strength,
independence, a desire to establish a good life, and so on.
A Muslim woman can capitulate to the demands of her society, her
interpretation of the faith, her family, and herself and still -
fundamentally - be as "free" as anyone else. Freedom is relative anyway.
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morticia
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Posted: 12-May-2006 at 01:10 |
I am curious as well, Mila. I have never met or spoken to a Muslim woman in detail about her way of life. What are the restrictions of Muslim women? How are Muslim women different from western women?
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ramin
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Posted: 12-May-2006 at 04:59 |
Originally posted by Mila
The history of Muslim women is one of the most complicated, varied, and interesting chapters of the overall history of women.
The Islamic faith gave women rights at a time when they had none and
offered them entitlements and expressions of justice unrivaled by any
other societal structure until very recently. |
that is true for some of the societies and cultures of that time. Surely women were sacrificed, buried alive for family honors, etc etc.... in semetic societies. However, there were communities that did not behave this way and treated women in a respectable fashion.
Originally posted by Mila
At the same time, women have been granted rights contradictory to Islam
- for example, Bosnian women earning the right to drink alcohol in
public. |
well, in fact in Islamic laws drinking is utterly prohibited. So, having women with permission to drink in public OR in private is not really a gift of Islam.
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"I won't laugh if a philosophy halves the moon"
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Richard XIII
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Posted: 12-May-2006 at 05:10 |
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"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."
Albert Einstein
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Digenis
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Posted: 12-May-2006 at 08:05 |
Originally posted by ramin
Originally posted by Mila
The Islamic faith gave women rights at a time when they had none and
offered them entitlements and expressions of justice unrivaled by any
other societal structure until very recently.
| that is true for some of the societies and cultures of that time. Surely women were sacrificed, buried alive for family honors, etc etc.... in semetic societies. However, there were communities that did not behave this way and treated women in a respectable fashion.
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Yes..it may be true ,comparing the position of women in Islamwith some societies in the past, but i m afraid we cannot compare it with the modern woman of the West.
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Mila
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Posted: 12-May-2006 at 09:38 |
Originally posted by ramin
[QUOTE=Mila]At
the same time, women have been granted rights contradictory to Islam
- for example, Bosnian women earning the right to drink alcohol in
public. |
well, in fact in Islamic laws drinking is utterly
prohibited. So, having women with permission to drink in public OR in
private is not really a gift of Islam.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, I know it's prohibited - that's why I said contradictory. I just
meant to show with that example and the Taliban example that some of
the things modern Muslim women have aren't really Muslim at all, and
some of the things more traditional Muslim women sometimes do aren't
really Muslim at all either.
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Mila
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Posted: 12-May-2006 at 09:42 |
Originally posted by Digenis
Yes..it may be true ,comparing the
position of women in Islamwith some societies in the past, but i
m afraid we cannot compare it with the modern woman of the West.
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We can't really compare any woman of the past with the modern woman of the West, not even Western women just a few decades ago.
But - I could be wrong, of course - but I truly believe that a woman's
place, fundamentally, in society, is similar in - for example, the
United Arab Emirates and Italy, more so than it is between Italy and
America. I think Greek and Turkish women have rights more similar to
each other than Greece and France, or Turkey and Iran.
So I don't think the divide is really between Muslims and non-Muslims
today, but between - literally - the south and the north. Latin America
is similar as well, as is much of Southern Europe, Africa, etc.
Edited by Mila
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Sir Jerry
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Posted: 12-May-2006 at 09:43 |
Originally posted by Mila
some of the things more traditional Muslim women sometimes do aren't really Muslim at all either. |
A very interesting thread.Mila could you provide some examples of things that traditional Muslim women do which arn't Muslim.
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Mila
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Posted: 12-May-2006 at 09:51 |
Covering their faces was the example I had in mind, but there are other examples I've read:
- Many do not pray during menstruation, believing it is forbidden, when it is not in the Koran.
- Many women do not leave wills if there are direct descendants, when
Islam allows them to leave wills once any debts have been repaid.
- Women (and men) are not allowed to get a divorce without a
complicated, two-phase attempted-reconcilliation process where in many
traditional countries the man can just say: I divorce you.
- Women are not allowed to be stoned for adultery according to the Koran, which we know happens.
- In Africa, some Muslim females are circumsized, which is definately not part of Islam.
- Women do not wear gold or listen to music in some countries, both of which are allowed in Islam.
Etc, etc, etc.
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Sir Jerry
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Posted: 12-May-2006 at 10:01 |
Thanx for the quick reply Mila.You increased my awareness about Islam.I would like to learn more.I think your signature is really cool.Is that you in the last pic [with a crown].
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Mila
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Posted: 12-May-2006 at 10:03 |
There's another aspect of this I'd like to discuss as well.
In most societies, women seem to attempt to live their lives according
to the male ideal. This is true in the West - with crippling high heels
and makeup - as it is in the East - with modest clothing and polite
ways. There are exceptions, of course - but generally speaking men and
women seem to have the same ideals for women. These ideals seem to be
based mainly in appearance and on-the-surface personality traits that
suit the culture's male tastes.
Take barbie dolls, for example. They exist in most cultures. In
America, she's blonde, has enormous breasts, a tiny waist, a homosexual
and unthreatening boyfriend (Ken), and is an ideal that is quite
literally impossible for women to physically achieve - Barbie's
measurements, in real life, would kill a woman.
In Bosnia, among Muslims, it's quite different:
The female barbie is literally miniscule compared to her male
counterpart, barely 2/3rds the size of the male doll. She's dressed in
traditional Bosniak clothing and comes with accessories that never
include a pink convertable. She is the woman every middle-aged man
remembers seeing on the streets as a young boy and represents an ideal
shared by women but not decided by women.
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Mila
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Posted: 12-May-2006 at 10:05 |
Originally posted by Sir Jerry
Thanx for the quick reply Mila.You increased my
awareness about Islam.I would like to learn more.I think your signature
is really cool.Is that you in the last pic [with a crown]. |
No, no. That's Dzejla Glavovic, Miss Bosnia and Miss Earth 2002. She was dethroned though.
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Sir Jerry
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Posted: 12-May-2006 at 10:10 |
Originally posted by Mila
a homosexual and unthreatening boyfriend (Ken) |
I'm very ignorant about Dolls but this seems an attack on the US.Are you sure Ken is a Homosexual.
Originally posted by Mila
She is the woman every middle-aged man remembers seeing on the streets as a young boy and represents an ideal shared by women but not decided by women. |
What would be the ideal decided by women in this case.
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Mila
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Posted: 12-May-2006 at 10:17 |
Oh sorry, I didn't mean it as an attack on the US. I promise.
I think the ideal decided by women would be different. It would have to
be more in-depth, personally speaking, of course. So many b-tches are
idealized because they fit the physical characteristics that are
pleasing to their culture when in fact they're horrible, evil,
vendictive human beings. Women, I think, wouldn't be as willing to
allow those who are ugly on the inside to be considered beautiful.
I think the women's ideal could be less important, really. It could be
more abstract, generalized, and inclusive. If you look at, for example,
Bosnian villages where there are few men left - the older women are
contented with a nice veil to tie their hair in, even if they have the
worst clothes. That veil, the nice veil, is a cultural ideal - it's
something to be proud of. Now that exists elsewhere in Bosnia where
there are lots of men and you can just say - it's just because they're
old, physically they're past the point of even worrying about it.
But if you look at children in these villages, they dress poor. Not
many get to Sarajevo to buy Levi jeans and United Colors of Benneton
tops. But they still have a heriarchial structure, I'm sure. There's
still popular girls and unpopular girls, but the lines couldn't be the
same as they are elsewhere. Take Japan, for example, where popular
students are generally the smartest - compared to America, where the
dumbest ones stereotypically are the most popular.
I really don't know how it would be different but I'm certain it would have to be. It'd just have to be.
Look at the rise in metrosexuals - men who groom well, take care of
their bodies, and so on. That's a direct result of women getting in a
say in their socieities. That's a direct result of, "Well if I don't
own her, how do I keep her?". Men are being forced to conform to a
woman's ideal of how they should be as well. I think.
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