Who was the ancestor of Turkic tribes ?

Originally posted by Attila2 Sorry folks but what most of you wrote is full o crap!(excuse me for the offence)   TURKS came from ALTAY,a region in western MONGOLIA and southern SIBERIA(please re-read if you didnt understand!) so please tell me ! BUT PLEASE! SO how come we have CAUCASIAN/INDO EUROPEAN ancestors!???  sorry but it is just plaiiiiin crap! If you tell this to a historian or an anthropologist,he would definately laughs till he dies...   And secondly ,to the guy who "can find no difference between the Turks and Afghans"...   Well I cant say you anything.I am just crying in hysteria and anger :)     (no I am NOT CALM!)

I'm sorry I intervene in your conversation, but I think I can help you to know, who exactly was  the ancestor of the turkic tribes. Esspecialy me, I am bulgarian. (Excuse me about my english!) Actualy, the good knowlidge of bulgarian history is a way to understand the tukic history, nevermind the theory of turkish origin of the bulgarian people is completely wrong. So, we talk about the huns, because ussualy the huns are considered to be the first known turks. That, simply saying is not true. By the way, they wasn't bulgarian too. The bulgarian official history science hold "the huns theory", which is very old and not suported by any kind of evidence. The truth is the huns was a tipical europoid people, but, possible not indoeuropean speaking, and maybe uralic. the archeological finds (as skuls and images) in Pazarik and Noin-Ula, and many other places shows us an absolutely europoid faces. The early turks from the Great Khaganat, and even the early Osmanic turks (untill the middle of 15th century) was mongoloid. Well, not like the chinese, but a mixed europoid-mongoloid type with a strong mongoloid part of vission. I have seen hundreds of pictures, miniatures, drawings and etc. Yes, the clan of Kaiy, of which belongs Orkhan, Osman/Otman and another guys after them, was europoid, but they was a small group and they came later, than the selcuk turks, which was an absolutely majority in the early Osmanic state. All you know the legend about the wolf and Ashina/Asina clan. Didn't you ever ask yourself why this early turks from the Khaganat, which was mongoloids take a non mongolian word for the term of "wolf"? I mean the mongolian term is "moghul/monghol" (ofcourse, they have the same legend). The answer is the aristocracy of the Khaganat wasn't mongoloid, it was hunic. And their language was different. Acctualy, the term  "ashina/shino" is probably sarmatian and means "a human bean/a group of  related  humans/a tribe", and it's coresponding to the term "as/asian/osian...". By the way, in the bulgarian language "I/me" is "az/as". And between 12th and 14th century A.D. we had a dinasty with the same name. This word leads back to the summerian and elamian languages when "aseen/ahsen" means "a nobble". And this is 2000 years B.C. How was happened this mistake with the wolf in this case? The answer is that in chinese language the term "jen" means "a human bean", but the mongoloid aborigenes in the Altay mountais wasn't just "jen" they called themselves "the tribe of the Great Wolf", i.e. they was proto-mongols. But on their languages it was "mo(n)ghol". Unfortunately, the small hunic group wich become their aristocracy spoke another language. So, in this way "Ashina/shino" became "Mo(n)ghol". By the way, at the same tame (153 A.D.) another small group of hin's nobility resieve a refuge to the sako-kushanian empire, and in Bulgaria we still have a legend about the deer, or doe, which saved a little baby flowing in a basked by the river. The reason of this difference is that "sak/saqa" means "deer/doe" in the skito-sarmatian language. That's way,  your savior was the wolf, but our-the deer/doe. Funny.  By the way , the term "turk" is not of altaic origin of skito-sarmatians, but it has more deeper roots, because the saka people get it from the summerians. In the summerian language "tur/turk" means "possesions/patrimony" and this including also the idea of "my own seeds" as the children, and the possesing cattle also. In the same summerian language "sak/shak" means "head", and this also had some meanings. It's "sak" as "a slave ( one head/ one number)", as a cattle (the same meaning), as a human bean (again), and as a sacrifitial cattle (which is absolutely nesesery to be a pure). this sacrifitial cattle is always a caw, or a bull. That's way in the north-eastern teritory of the Middle Asia, where the saka people lived later, it was assotiated with the deer. (In the medieval bulgarian language "bull" is "shegor", as the old turkish "sagyr"?) By the way, there's a lot of summerian, accadian, assirian and etc. scripts where the huritian people, or the later urartian was called "Hun-huri/Uni/Unki...". The term of "saka/shaka", wich accadian version is "sara/shara", because of one of it's meaning "head" was assotiated as "a king/a ruller/who takes a decision", goes to skithian (summerian version), and sarmatian (accadian version). Personaly I can't explane to myself why an how the sarmatian-an indoeuropean people, living more later, takes in use an accadian semitic term. Accadian empire was destroyed about 2200 B.C. of one of proto- bulgarian (and probably proto-hunic) tribe - the guteans/the kuteans (in assirin transcription). O.K. That's enough for today. See you again. Best wishes, friends!

It doesn't relate to what I said at all. Read my post before starting the argument again. Tell me how can Ashina originate from Saka language?

If you believe in the Paleolithic Continuity Theory, Turkic-Uralic history goes back a little further than 1250 BC.

Personally I think a lot of the historical artifacts assigned to allegedly Iranic speaking Sycthians, dating to way before the Hunnic era, were actually Turkic. I think the Indo-Europeanist researchers are stretching it way too far when they find something they like in Mongolia or Siberia and call it "Indo-European" rather than Turkic or Altai.

This topic is similar to the 1st sedentary Turks (and Tut's Turkic enemies) one(s)  (& compare Turan forum ad thread), so I herein also partly include (unposted) replies to both/all 3.

No offense but I think you[s] are approaching this not quite the right way, tho one or two of you have come close (like "Balkh-Aryan" & ). If you want to work out the origins and development of the Turks or , then you surely must consult their own (& other peoples') traditions. Accordring to themselves they are descended from Burte Chino the Blue Wolf (=? Tu-Kueh, cognate of hound/canine &/or Cuculain/Coyote, seemingly supposed to be origin of name Turk?), quote from my blog:
"-> Mongol/Buryat version (creation myth): [10?] Borjigin/blue-eyed heroes children of the Blue (celestial) Wolf and the White Fallow Doe ("repr sky & earth, male & female, light & dark") (Acknowls: Hopsen/history forum, Tani Jantsang, Savitri Devi, google search.)"

(If anyone can clarify what the relationship between Burte Chino, Tu-Kueh, Tengri/Odlek, etc is, I'd be very interested/grateful.)

This could perhaps connect with the tradition of the White Island in the Gobi Sea. The Hun's city/cities is said to have been thereabouts (ref Peter Kolosimo). Compare Shambhala.

(Not far (globally) from Gobi is the Lop Nur/Tarim/Sinkiang "Tocharian" mummies. (There have also been found [Egyptian-like?] pyramids in "China".) Nazis thought Aryans might have come from Tibet just below Sinkiang. (A Jewish source says Aryans came from Lena valley!) Not far from Sinkiang is the ancient Turkmenistan culture finds. Donnelly/Sykes mentions an ancient solar edifice thereabouts.)

Buryat tradition: 1st shaman was Morgon-Kara.

Japheth ["yellow" or "white"]
Turk (adopted) [Togarmah? Tur (Iranian)?]
Taunak Khan
Jelza K
Dibbakui K
Kajuk K
Alanza/Ilingeh K
Mogul K...........................................|..Tatar K
Kara K.............................................|..Buka, Jalanzak, Ettala K [consecutive?]
Ogus/Oguz K "1392-1276"/675 bc..|..Attaisis K
Kiun "sun" K....................................|..Orda, (Baydu, Siuntz K) [consecutive?]
Juldus "star" K.................................|..Orda, Baydu, (Siuntz K)
Mengli K..........................................|..(Orda,) Baydu, (Siuntz K)
Tengis K..........................................|..(Orda,) Baydu, Siuntz K
Il Khan.............................................|..(Orda, Baydu,) Siuntz Khan "600s bc"
Kajan...............................................|..

Note: Ogus Khan (Gog or Cush?) is said to have invaded as far as Egypt, and so some try to make Hyksos = "iki-Ogus". (Carelton Coon wrote in his book that ancient Libyans were like Altaics.)

Japhet
Cheen Khan [= Burte Chino]
Macheen K
Mukri Kowi K
Mukri Yumunish K
Kowi K
Bai Timoor K
Koor Noghan K
Koor Chool K
Suliman K
Kureh Ooglan K
Koomash K
Amood K
Balchuk K
Kara Jad K
Jar Soogheh K
Koor Tulmush K
Subookh/Subooneej K
Tai K
Toghrul K
Bash Boogha K
Yamook K
Kuzulboogha K
Yumake K
Tooruj K
Buktimoor K
Fukyari K
Artook K
Toochung K
Ai Tooghlimush K
Toghrul K
Bai Buk K
Yulwaj K
Bai Soob K
Aghooz/"Ogus" K (15th ascent)
Kook Alp K
Basook K
Took Timoor K
Soor Ghar K
Baki Agha K
Bai Sunkoor K
Keeltoon K
Toor Ghar K
Ai Kootloogh K
Yanud K
Kuzul Boogha K
Kya Alp K
Suliman K
Atrogrul K
Sool-taun Osman Khan (15th [descent])

So, Buryats from Burte Chino, Mongols from Mogul Khan, Tatars from Tatar Khan, Turanians from Tur (Iranian tradition), Turks from Turk [or Tu-Kueh?], Uighurs [or Ugrians?] from Ogus Khan, Scythians from Scythes [or -skais/-xais?]

Herodotus gives Scythian traditional origin from 3 (-skais) sons of Targitaus (son of Zeus), or from Scythes (son of Hercules).

If you mean Turanian/Ural-Altaic, then you could say the Sumerians were the first sedentary ones!? (Sumerians supposed to have been Turanian lang &/or race.)

Theosophy says Turanians were 4th root race (cp Jantsang's "serpent race").

The 2 main sequences of successive/consecutive euroasian invasions/dominations/peoples I have are, 1:
Thracian/Cimmerian -> Scythian -> Sarmatian/Alans/Ossetes -> Goths -> Huns.
(Compare Herodotus: 1 Issedones->Arimaspians; 2 Scythians->Issedones; 3 Cimmerians->Scythians)

(At times I have wondered if there was a connection between the names Kittim, Scyth, Xuthus (Greek), Khitan/Cathay or Khazar/Kazakh?)

and 2:
Huns/Hsiung-nu (Gobi)
Nthern Huns
Sthern Huns
Avars
Turks/Tu-Kueh (= "hound/canine")
Eastern Turks
Tang/China
Eastern Turks
Turk
Eastern Turks
Uighurs
Kirghiz
Khitan/Liao
Juchen/Chin
Mongols/Yuan/Grt Khans/Chinghis Khan
Chagatai |
(Timurid) | Mongols/Nthern Yuan
Chagatai |
Zungar Kalmaks
Manchurians/China

Things get complicated with (ie haven't yet incorporated) Yueh-Chi, Kushanas, Tocharians, Sakas, Khazars, Bulgars, Magyars, Cossacks, etc.

Turanian/Ural-Altaic language family inclds:
Turk-Tatar, Buryat-Mongol, Tungus-Manchu, Finn-Ugric, Samoyed,
Koreo-Japan, Eskimo-Aleut, Sumer-Accad, [Basque?]

Zenaide Ragozin &/or Ignatius Donnelly distinguished between white and yellow Turanians. Turanians include 2 separate sub-races - Turanid/Turkic/eurasicus  (Caucasoid [Tocharian?]), and Tungid/tatarus/[north?] mongol  ([classic?] Mongoloid). (Compare: Ta(r)tar vs Mo(n)gul; Wolf & Doe?) While some seem to think that the Turanians are a caucasoid-mongoloid mix, others seem to think that the Siberian/Buryat are an extreme/primary (Coon, Sforza). (Some say the Chinese came from a combination of Turanian and Mediterranean. Europeanoids said to come from Asian & African.) With a number of different conflicting/contradicting theories (Epigraphic society has another different theory), it seems no one yet really knows for sure the whole story.

Asena [Tuwu?] nurse-mate
child-mate
Ashina [Tuwu?] youngest of 10

Asena/Ashina Tuwu
Ashina Bumin/Tumen Khan, Yili Qaghan, 1st Khan (bro Istemi Yabghu)
Muhan Khan east (Istemi Yabghu west)


Bodonchar Munhah
Khaidu Khan
[Khabul K,
Bartan Baatur,
Yesugei Baatur]
Temujin => Chingis Khan

(Bodonchar Munhah/Munqaq ancestor/founder of (Turkic/Tataric) Borjigin/"Mongol" clan/tribe.)

Your theory is interesting, but unfortunately the patronim Togarma is evidenced ever cince the documents from the ancient time (including the Bible). There is another document called Anonimous Latin Chronograph from 354 A.D. It exist in two copys I & II, and also a version called Chronica Alexandrie. There's also "A History of Armenia" (482 A.D.) from the early medieval armenian writer (the most famous in Armenia) Mouses Horenatsi. In all this documents is mentioned The legendary Togarma. This is long before the letter of the hazarian khagan Josef to the spanish ravine Hasdai Ib'b Shaprut. In the documents which I wrote abowe Togarma is called also Targum, Torgom, Torgaman and etc. In the "Histyory of Armenia" he is mentioned as a son of Tiras and grandson of Gomer. Gomer usual is considered as a eponim of the Cimmerians, and if for him are possible some speculations for some eventual turkish descendents, the second person - Tiras is considered as an eponim of the Thracians, about who is absolute nonsense any turkish relations. The Bible which mentioned for a first time Togarma, related him probably with the caucasian people and this is about VII - VI century B.C., when was not any kind of turks. That's why any relations with "Tu-Wu", "Tu-Kueh" and etc. are absolutely nonsence. In the Anonimous Latin Chronograph Gomer is mentioned as an eponim of the Capadocians (after the cimmerian invasions and setlements), bet Togarma, as an eponim of the Armenians (more corect, their Tocharo-sarmatian element). If you think the Armenians are actually Turks, this is another theme of discussion. Have a nice day!