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Was there a Dorian Invasion?

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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Was there a Dorian Invasion?
    Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 16:59

Maju Knossos felt bacause of Tsunami, that propably created after of an earthquake. And I will open a thread reagarding the Cycladean civilization

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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 17:11
Maju soemthing that I forget. Geologists and archaeologists now believe from evidence uncovered in the area and from the effect of the 1883 explosion of the volcano Krakatoa, that a similar volcanic explosion shaped Santorini. The explosion was, however, four times more powerful. It produced the huge bay of Santorini, and as the volcano blew apart and sank, a massive tidal wave as the water rushed in to fill the caldera. The effect of the tidal wave, several hundred feet high, was felt as far away as Spain. It is now acknowledged that this volcanic eruption was responsible for the destruction of the Minoan civilization on Crete. Dust and ash from the volcano coupled with earthquakes and the massive tidal wave would have obliterated crops and life leaving the magnificent Minoan civilization in ruins.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 18:25

Just one or two notes on the above mentioned.

1) Greek 'tribes' were obviously a part of the Sea People. The 'Danuna' are identified as the 'Danaoi', most consider the 'Ekwesh' to be the 'Acheans' due to a similar to a Hittite term used to describe them. There are also several Egyptian and Hebrew texts that refer to the 'Peleshet' comming from 'Caphor' that has been identified as Crete.
In addition we could note several archeologic finds such as pottery, buildings and place names that are very similar if not identical to Greek of that era.

2) The only area that has been recorded to have been affected by the Minoan-Athenea war was these two areas. This ended with a result the 'surrender' of Athens that was struck by plague and the agreement of sending 14 youths (half male half female) every nine year to be sacrificed to the Minotaur. While this is obviously a symbolization for something else, I really can't say what. (unless we believe that the beast did exist)

3)The conception of a Dorian invasion is an outdated theory. Besides archeologic finds that can link their presence prior to the theorized invasion or arrival.
For example:
Dispite the unexplainable insistance of refering to an introduction of a new type of sword and of the fibula (an early form of the safety-pin) by the invaders (either foreign or domestic), both are found in Mycenean contexts before any of the theorized disasters . Changes in customs which did occured after 1200 B.C.:
the use of iron, cremation rather than inhumation, and single or double burials in  stone-lined graves (cists) instead of multiple burials in chamber tombs, all these took place gradually and do not seem to be related to one another (Hooker 1976)

It should also be mentioned that there are also written records, Homer clearly mentions Dorians in his Iliad. book 2.654 and 665 or we could look into the Doric linguistic elements found in Linear B' tablets as Prof. Chantzidakis has noted that clearly indicate their presence.

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  Quote St. Francis of Assisi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 20:45
I don't know which is the reason for that conclussion.


Really, or are you just being difficult? The wall at the Isthmus was abandoned, after the sacking of Corinth. The enemy could not come from the north because their was a giant wall being built blocking off the isthmus, and, moreover, there is no evidence that there was a struggle near the wall. The only other way to reach Corinth is by sea.

Technically the Heraklidae invaded the Peloponesos by sea: they crossed the strait of Rio, or so their legend says.


Would you care to substantiate that? Show us their legend, from an ancient source, and where it says that. Moreover, explain to use at what time mythology superceded archaeology.

That's pretty unlikely. The destruction of Troy, which was accompanied surely by that of their Hittite allies, left Asia Minor without sizeable powers - and despite the Phrygian and Lydian "interregnum" it would be that way until the Ottomans. I don't think Myletus could invade Greece on its own - or with the Lycian pirates only.


The greatest written record surviving from that period, the Illiad, talks about a self-destructive war. Troy was destroyed around the same time as the other Mycenaean city-states, about fifty years before the Dorians. Put two and two together -the Mycenaean city states, and the Anatolian ones, had a self-destructive war. I never proposed Miletus invaded Greece. I propose that the Anatolian city-states fought with the Mycenaean ones, and mutually self destroyed their civilization. Hittite civilization fell after the fall of Troy, destroyed not only by the Sea Peoples, but also by barbarian invaders from the west and north.

That's true: I was ignorant about these tablets but they do not prove that the actual invaders came from the sea, specially when we do have accounts that say otherwise. Not a single mythological account tells of a naval invasion of Greece, they talk about the Dorian invasion from the north - with or without the Heraklidae.


Maju, when did mythology supercede archaeology? The Dorian invasions occurred after 1140 BC, and that was when the return of the Heraklidae was dated. The tablets warn of an invasion by the sea, and after they are found, Pylos is destroyed, and probably not from the North, where a wall was blocking the Isthmus. There is no evidence that the Dorians destroyed the Myceanean civilization, or else the Mycenaean civilization would have survived until the time of the Dorians, when it was destroyed ffity years prior. As for the mythological account, they are not relevant. But, if you want some, here they are:

1. Minos invaded Athens from Crete by sea.
2. Greeks invaded Troy from Mycenae by sea.
3. Minos invaded Sicily from Crete by Sea.
4. Heracles invades Troy by sea.
5. Theseus invades Crete by sea.
6. Theseus and Heracles invade the land of the Amazons by sea.

You seem to have built your theories in preconcieved ideas not in facts:  the watcher-by-the-sea tablets don't say that Pylos was destroyed by a naval invasion - instead Greek sources say it was invaded by Dorians from the NE.


You are basing your entire knowledge of the era on one source- the myth of the return of the Heraklidae. Greek sources speak of several wars between the Mycenaeans at the end of the Age of Heroes. The watcher-by-the-sea-tablets say that there was a threat of Pylos being destroyed by sea. The Dorians did not invade by sea, nor did they ever attempt to invade by sea.

Greek 'tribes' were obviously a part of the Sea People. The 'Danuna' are identified as the 'Danaoi', most consider the 'Ekwesh' to be the 'Acheans' due to a similar to a Hittite term used to describe them. There are also several Egyptian and Hebrew texts that refer to the 'Peleshet' comming from 'Caphor' that has been identified as Crete.


You are quite right. These are my identifications of the Sea Peoples:

1. Teresh: Tyrrhenoi
2. Shekelesh: Sikels
3. Shardana: Sardinians
4. Peleset: Cretans
5. Danuna: Danaans
6. Ekwesh: Ahhiyyawwa (from Anatolia)
7. Lukka: Lycians
8. Tjekker: Teucri
9. Weshesh: Wilusa
10. Meshwesh: Libyans

As you can see, three of the tribes are Italic, four are Anatolian, one is Cretan, and only one is from mainland Greece, if even that (they could also be from Crete). All these locations, Crete, Italy, and Anatolia, are tied together in mythology as being ruled over by the sons of Asterius.

2) The only area that has been recorded to have been affected by the Minoan-Athenea war was these two areas. This ended with a result the 'surrender' of Athens that was struck by plague and the agreement of sending 14 youths (half male half female) every nine year to be sacrificed to the Minotaur. While this is obviously a symbolization for something else, I really can't say what. (unless we believe that the beast did exist)


Yes, but don't forget other wars mentioned, least of all the Trojan War.

The conception of a Dorian invasion is an outdated theory. Besides archeologic finds that can link their presence prior to the theorized invasion or arrival.


I agree it is an outdated theory, but the evidence for their migration only appears after 1140 BC. Does Homer really mention Dorians? Could you post the passage.

But we are agreed, then, that there was no Dorian invasion but a migration?
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 21:43
Originally posted by akritas

Maju soemthing that I forget. Geologists and archaeologists now believe from evidence uncovered in the area and from the effect of the 1883 explosion of the volcano Krakatoa, that a similar volcanic explosion shaped Santorini. The explosion was, however, four times more powerful. It produced the huge bay of Santorini, and as the volcano blew apart and sank, a massive tidal wave as the water rushed in to fill the caldera. The effect of the tidal wave, several hundred feet high, was felt as far away as Spain. It is now acknowledged that this volcanic eruption was responsible for the destruction of the Minoan civilization on Crete. Dust and ash from the volcano coupled with earthquakes and the massive tidal wave would have obliterated crops and life leaving the magnificent Minoan civilization in ruins.


Yes, I know that Santorini/Thera was brutal. What I meant is that Cretan civilizaton continues later (Cnossos period) under Greek rule (Linear B script).

Edit: just found this:


Despite numerous and varied arguments by a host of reputable scholars [e.g. Marinatos (1939), Page (1970), Doumas (1974), Luce (1976)] that one or more of the events associated with the period of extreme activity of the Santorini volcano surveyed above [i.e. earthquake(s), ash fall(s), tidal wave(s)] had a direct and disastrous effect on Neopalatial Minoan civilization, the simple facts are that the great earthquake which badly damaged Akrotiri is to be dated quite early in LM IA (either ca. 1650 or ca. 1560 B.C.?), that the entire town was buried in meters of volcanic ash still within the LM IA period (ca. 1625 or ca. 1550/1540 B.C.?), and that the wave of destructions (most of them including fires) which defines the end of the Neopalatial period on Crete and to which the palaces at Mallia, Phaistos, and Zakro all fell victim cannot be dated earlier than LM IB (ca. 1480/1470 B.C.?). Hood [TAW I (1978) 681-690] claims that clear evidence of the earthquake which so severely damaged Akrotiri before the town was buried is to be found at several sites on Crete where it is clearly dated to LM IA. More importantly, tephra from the later eruption of the Theran volcano has been found within the past decade in LM IA contexts on Rhodes (at Trianda) and Melos (at Phylakopi) as well as on Crete itself, ample confirmation that the eruption preceded the LM IB destruction horizon on Crete by a significant amount of time. Thus no direct correlation can be established between the Santorini volcano and the collapse of Neopalatial Minoan civilization.



Source.


Edited by Maju

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 22:11
Originally posted by St. Francis of Assisi



Technically the Heraklidae invaded the Peloponesos by sea: they crossed the strait of Rio, or so their legend says.


Would you care to substantiate that? Show us their legend, from an ancient source, and where it says that. Moreover, explain to use at what time mythology superceded archaeology.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclidae

I don't see any substantia archaeological data that justifies your assumptions. Just your own guesses. maybe if you re-read your own posts you would see that.

I never proposed Miletus invaded Greece. I propose that the Anatolian city-states fought with the Mycenaean ones, and mutually self destroyed their civilization. 


So you suggest that the Sea Peoples were the Hittite Empire - as I know of no Anatolian city-states at that time other than Troy and Miletus, both vassals of the Hittites.

Hittite civilization fell after the fall of Troy, destroyed not only by the Sea Peoples, but also by barbarian invaders from the west and north.


Unclear. The only references are Egyptian records that blame the Sea Peoples. Do you have some more data. I would like that you substantiate your many unorthodox claims such as "also by barbarian invaders from the west and north" - I don't deny it, just that you use to give your own ideas as already justified or widely accepted, and that's not necessarily the case.

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  Quote St. Francis of Assisi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 22:30
I don't see any substantia archaeological data that justifies your assumptions. Just your own guesses. maybe if you re-read your own posts you would see that.


No substnatial archaeological data? I will repost it here. The destruction of the Mycenaeans took place before the invasion of the Dorians. Here is a catalogue of this destruction (all dating to pre-Dorian times):

Significant Destructions

(1) The so-called "houses outside the walls" at Mycenae (House of the Oil Merchant, House of Shields, House of Sphinxes, West House), located on a series of terraces south of Grave Circle B, were destroyed by fire in LH IIIB1. Wace concluded, from the evidence of stirrup jars filled with oil whose necks had been smashed off, that the fire was purposefully set after oil had been poured over the basement of the House of the Oil Merchant.

(2) The so-called "Potter's Shop" at Zygouries, probably a country mansion or even a small palace, was destroyed by fire in the LH IIIB1 period.

(3) The "palace" and citadel of Gla were destroyed by fire. Recent excavations at the site by Iakovides have confirmed that this destruction occurred early in the LH IIIB period, at which time the Copac Basin may well have been reflooded.

(4) There are some grounds for believing that part, if not all, of the later or so-called "New" Palace at Thebes was destroyed at this time, although not by fire.

Significant Constructions

(1) The fortifications at Mycenae were strengthened and an underground water supply system was added, presumably to allow the defenders to withstand a protracted siege (Phases 2 and 3 in the evolution of the citadel at Mycenae).

(2) The fortifications at Tiryns were strengthened, the citadel was substantially enlarged by the addition of the Unterburg (Lower Citadel), the storage facilities within the fortified area were enormously expanded with the construction of the East and South Galleries, in addition to numerous vaulted chambers within the thickness of the Unterburg's fortification wall, and an underground water supply system was again added in a final stage of construction to give the fortress adequate resources in the case of a prolonged siege (Phases 2 and 3 in the evolution of the citadel at Tiryns).

(3) Cyclopean fortifications were constructed around the Acropolis in Athens, and in a late stage of the LH IIIB period a subterranean water supply system was added to this citadel as well.

(4) A massive program of fortification was initiated at the Isthmus of Corinth in the form of a wall which was evidently intended to seal off the Peloponnese from invasion by land forces from the north. The surviving evidence suggests that this enormously ambitious project was never completed.

Evidence from the Linear B Tablets

(1) The "watchers-by-the-sea" tablets from Pylos have been interpreted by some as showing Mycenaean concern over the possibility of a seaborne invasion of Messenia.


The Argolid and Corinthia

(1) A major destruction level within the citadel walls at Mycenae defines the end of the LH IIIB2 ceramic phase. The entire area within the walls appears to have been destroyed by fire and the palace was never rebuilt. The evidence for an earthquake at nearby Tiryns (see below) has led some excavators at Mycenae to attribute this destruction at Mycenae to a contemporary earthquake that had a major impact at all the sites ringing the Argive plain (i.e. at Midea as well; see below).

(2) A major destruction by fire took place within the walls at Tiryns at the end of LH IIIB2 or just possibly in the very earliest stages of LH IIIC. Since the palace was completely excavated by Schliemann and others before modern archaeological practices became standard, it is difficult to be sure that the palace area was not reconstructed and reoccupied in the LH IIIC period. However, there is no compelling evidence to suggest that a Mycenaean palace functioned at Tiryns after this destruction.

The most recent excavations in the Unterburg at Tiryns have provided masses of data for the nature and date of this destruction. The associated pottery seems to be slightly later in date than the pottery from the equivalently massive destruction at Mycenae. Of even greater potential significance is the strong conviction of the German excavators that the destruction at Tiryns was caused by an earthquake rather than being due to human agency. The Greek excavators at Mycenae, Mylonas and Iakovides, have long championed the view that the destruction of terminal LH IIIB at Mycenae was also due to an earthquake. It may be, then, that both Mycenae and Tiryns were destroyed at the same time by a natural disaster, although no final consensus has yet been reached on this point.

Zangger has dated the destruction by flood of the lower town (Unterstadt) at Tiryns to the transition between LH IIIB and LH IIIC. It is as yet unclear what the date of this event should be relative to the citadel's destruction by fire.

(3) At least part, and probably all, of the walled citadel of Midea was destroyed by fire in or at the end of LH IIIB2. This destruction has been connected by Demakopoulou with the earthquake to which roughly contemporary destruction horizons at nearby Mycenae and Tiryns have been attributed.

(4) The small settlement at Iria to the southeast of Nauplion was destroyed by fire in the earliest recognizable stage of LH IIIC.

(5) Both Berbati and Prosymna appear to have been abandoned either late in LH IIIB or early in LH IIIC.

(6) The latest material of Bronze Age date from both Nemea-Tsoungiza and Zygouries is in each case a small amount of LH IIIB2 pottery, but the two sites appear to have been markedly less intensively occupied in this phase than in the preceding LH IIIB1 stage. Both appear to have been abandoned by the beginning of the LH IIIC phase.

Boeotia

(1) Eutresis was abandoned very early in the LH IIIC period.

(2) The bulk of the so-called "New Palace" in Thebes was probably destroyed by fire late in LH IIIB.

Phocis

(1) Krisa was destroyed, although the precise date of the destruction within the LH IIIB to early LH IIIC periods is uncertain.

Laconia

(1) The Menelaion was destroyed by fire at or near the end of the LH IIIB period.

(2) The site of Ayios Stephanos shows no evidence of occupation after the very early LH IIIC period.

Messenia

(1) The palace at Pylos was burnt either late in the LH IIIB period or at some point fairly early in the LH IIIC phase, subsequently never to be rebuilt. Mountjoy (1997) has argued that the pottery from destruction contexts in the palace can be dated quite closely in Argive terms to the transition from LH IIIB to IIIC (her freshly coined "Transitional LH IIIB2/LH IIIC Early" phase).

(2) Nichoria was destroyed late in LH IIIB.

(3) The evidence for massive depopulation in the LH IIIC period is more striking in Messenia than in any other area of southern Greece.

Achaea

There is an apparent population influx into this area during the LH IIIC period, although Papadopoulos' 1978-79 review of the evidence suggests that this may have been somewhat overemphasized by Desborough in 1964. The primary evidence for this influx consists of an increase in tombs in the area during the LH IIIC phase, precisely the reverse of the situation observed in Messenia, Laconia, and even the Argolid at this time.

Ionian Islands

As in Achaea, large numbers of newly constructed LH IIIC tombs, on the island of Kephallenia in particular, suggest a population influx into this area during this period.

Attica

(1) Although the later Athenians were very proud of the fact that they had escaped conquest at the hands of the invading Dorians, a case can nevertheless be made for the violent destruction of the Mycenaean citadel on the Acropolis in the earliest sub-phase of the LH IIIC period, contemporary with the destruction of Iria in the Argolid. Although the archaeological evidence for such a destruction is good, the agent(s) of the destruction cannot be precisely identified and thus the later Athenian boast that they defeated the Dorians may well be true.

(2) The extremely crowded conditions in the LH IIIC cemetery of Perati in eastern Attica suggest that there was probably at least a significant nucleation of population at, if not necessarily a population influx into, this coastal site in this period. The settlement associated with the Perati cemetery may well have been located on the rugged Raphtis island in the middle of Porto Raphti bay, an indication that a settlement on the Mainland itself (as at the nearby site of Brauron in the preceding LH IIIA-B periods) was somehow not safe. Indeed, it is tempting to identify the population buried at Perati as migrants from Brauron and their descendants, since both the settlement and the cemetery at Brauron go out of use at just about the same time as burials begin at Perati.

Cyprus

Although the settlement in quantity of Mycenaean "colonists" on Cyprus during the LH IIIA and IIIB periods is considered doubtful by most scholars, there is no doubt but that the LH IIIC period witnessed at least two major incursions of Mycenaean "refugees" into the island. The first of these is dated early in LH IIIC at the sites of Enkomi, Kition, Palaeokastro Maa, and Sinda, while the second took place perhaps a couple of generations later in advanced LH IIIC.

Conclusions

The areas suffering the violent destruction of major administrative centers in the late LH IIIB period and massive depopulation in the subsequent LH IIIC phase lie along a roughly north-south axis (Boeotia, western Attica, Corinthia, Argolid, Messenia, Laconia). Population influxes, where these have been detected, are in evidence both west (Achaea, Ionian Islands) and east (eastern Attica, Cyprus) of this major north-south axis and have also been claimed further south on Crete. It is, however, too early to establish coherent patterns with any confidence from the limited amount of data currently available. Above all, more information is needed on the course of events in Thessaly and Macedonia at this time. Recent excavations at Assiros and Kastanas in central Macedonia will go some way toward filling the gaps in the evidence, but western Macedonia and Thessaly still remain blank. Evidence from stratified settlement sites occupied during this period in such areas as Achaea, the Ionian islands, and eastern Attica is also highly desirable. Full publication of the long LH IIIC sequence at Lefkandi in Euboea will be very informative, but this site is unlikely to provide much useful information on the transition from LH IIIB to LH IIIC in this area.

GUIDELINE TO DATING:

Approx. date Period
1000 protogeometric
10601000 submycenean
10901060 LHIIIC late
11301090 LHIIIC middle
11901130 LHIIIC early
12301190 LHIIIB2
13001230 LHIIIB1
13501300 LHIIIA2
14001350 LHIIIA1
14501400 LHIIB
15001450 LHIIA
15501500 LHI

So you suggest that the Sea Peoples were the Hittite Empire - as I know of no Anatolian city-states at that time other than Troy and Miletus, both vassals of the Hittites.

I never suggested the Sea Peoples were the Hittite Empire. I suggest that the Anatolian cities/states (sorry, not city-states) fought with the mainland Greek ones, and that there was a war, both sides were destroyed, and that when invaders from Italy came, many of the refugees from this conflict joined them.

The Hittites were not in control of W. Anatolia. The Trojans, Lycians, and Ahhiyyawa were. These constituted the Tjekker, Weshesh, Lukka, and Ekwesh.

Unclear. The only references are Egyptian records that blame the Sea Peoples. Do you have some more data. I would like that you substantiate your many unorthodox claims such as "also by barbarian invaders from the west and north" - I don't deny it, just that you use to give your own ideas as already justified or widely accepted, and that's not necessarily the case.


From the west were the Phrygians who invade the Hittite Empire. From the north, the Mushki and possibly the Kaskas. From the south, the Sea peoples.


After this date, the power of the Hittites began to decline yet again, as the Assyrians had seized the opportunity to vanquish Mitanni and expand to the Euphrates while Muwatalli was preoccupied with the Egyptians. Assyria now posed equally as great a threat to Hittite trade routes as Egypt had ever been. His son, Urhi-Teshub, took the throne as Mursili III, but was quickly ousted by his uncle, Hattusili III after a brief civil war. In response to increasing Assyrian encroachments along the frontier, he concluded a peace and alliance with Rameses II, presenting his daughter's hand in marriage to the Pharaoh. The "Treaty of Kadesh", one of the oldest completely surviving treaties in history, fixed their mutual boundaries in Canaan, and was signed in the 21st year of Rameses (c. 1258 BC).

Hattusili's son, Tudhaliya IV, was the last strong Hittite king able to keep the Assyrians out of Syria and even temporarily annex the island of Cyprus. The very last king, Suppiluliuma II also managed to win some victories, including a naval battle against the Sea Peoples off the coast of Cyprus. But it was too late. The Sea Peoples had already begun their push down the Mediterranean coastline, starting from the Aegean, and continuing all the way to Philistia -- taking Cilicia and Cyprus away from the Hittites en route and cutting off their coveted trade routes. This left the Hittite homelands vulnerable to attack from all directions, and Hattusa was burnt to the ground sometime around 1180 BC following a combined onslaught from Gasgas, Bryges and Luwians. The Hittite Empire thus vanished from the historical record.

By 1160 BC, the political situation in Asia Minor looked vastly different than it had only 25 years earlier. In that year, the Assyrians were dealing with the Mushku pressing into northernmost Mesopotamia from the Anatolian highlands, and the Gasga people, the Hittites' old enemies from the northern hill-country between Hatti and the Black Sea, seem to have joined them soon after. The Mushku or Mushki had apparently overrun Cappadocia from the West, with recently discovered epigraphic evidence confirming their origins as the Balkan "Bryges" tribe, forced out by the Macedonians.

A large and powerful state known as Tabal had occupied the region south of these. Their language appears to have been Luwian, related to Hittite, but usually written in hieroglyphics instead of cuneiform. Several lesser city-states extending from here to Northern Syria also used Luwian, although they are sometimes known as "neo-Hittite". Soon after these upheavals began, both hieroglyphs and cuneiform were rendered obsolete by a new innovation, the alphabet, that seems to have entered Anatolia simultaneously from the Aegean (with the Bryges, who changed their name to Phrygians), and from the Phoenicians and neighboring peoples in Syria.

Ironically, the language of the Lydians, spoken in the West of Asia Minor until the 1st century BC, was apparently a linguistic descendant of Hittite, and not Luwian. This and the fact that one of Lydia's kings known to the Greeks bore the Hittite royal name Myrsilis (Mursilis) may indicate that this state was the purest cultural and ethnic continuation of the former Hittites. The last trace of this language persisted until the 5th century AD, according to some Church Fathers, when it was known as the tiny dialect of Isaurian, spoken in only one or two villages.

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  Quote Maljkovic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 07:09

Originally posted by St. Francis of Assisi

I don't know which is the reason for that conclussion.


Really, or are you just being difficult? The wall at the Isthmus was abandoned, after the sacking of Corinth. The enemy could not come from the north because their was a giant wall being built blocking off the isthmus, and, moreover, there is no evidence that there was a struggle near the wall. The only other way to reach Corinth is by sea.

Key word: being built. Defending a fortress that is not completed is pointless, stupid and borderline suicidal. It would make far more sense to abandon it and fall back to a fort that was completed. Besides, there are three ways to hit Corinth-North, Sea and South. If indeed the enemy crossed the strait of Rio, they would have open access through the southern route, just like Atila the Hun did.

Speaking of Atila, did you know that besides writen evidence, there is basically no archeological remains of the Huns left, in spite of the fact that they were responsible for the fall of an empire? This could be the case here, an attack of an unknown nomadic tribe destroys the Acheans, but leaves no evidence, and then the Dorians come, like Germanic and Slavic tribes did, and settle in the remanents of the lost civilization?

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 09:34
I will refer your massive copy-paste, Saint: http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/classics/history/bronze_age/l essons/les/28.html

The conclusions are, of course, inconclussive. For a review of the diferent theories forwarded by scholars, follow the above link. Basically:
  • Andronikos (1954) - a peasant revolution. /Criticism: hardly believable/
  • Vermeule (1960) and Iakovides (1974) - economic crisis caused by Sea Peoples's piracy (disruption of trade). /Cause of ultimate destructon unclear/
  • Desborough (1964) - invasion by land from the North.
  • Mylonas (1966) - separate reasons for each destrution (some of them traceable via the Greek sagas). /Criticism: there is contemporaneity in the destruction/
  • Carpenter (1966) - massive drought. /It may have some base but doesn't adress the main problem of the destruction/
  • Many authors (1975-96) - invaders (based in the appearence of a "coarse pottery") from (ultimately) the Central Danube basin (Urnfields?) /Criticism: the role an interpretation of this ware is unclear and it goes with Myceneans to Cyprus and elsewhere/
  • Winter (1977) - Barbarian invaders don't need to leave significative remains out of destruction, as the study of historical invasions of the Galatians and Slavs show.
  • Betancourt (1976) - Very specialized and therfore fragile Mycenean economy.
  • Drews (1993) - Substantial changes in warfare style (aristocratic chariot -> plebeian javelin) weakened the monarchical state to the point of destruction in some cases. /Criticism: chariots were surely never important in mountainous Greece/
Personally I see the signs of an invasion very clear but, of course there must be diferent opinions. I also think that the invaders were those that we find later: the Dorians.

My only doubt is wether the Dorians are true Greeks or Hellenized barbarians... but that's another story.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 09:45

I can't help but notice that you contradicted your statement.
Originally saying :

"The wall at the Isthmus was abandoned, after the sacking of Corinth. The enemy could not come from the north because their was a giant wall being built blocking off the isthmus, and, moreover, there is no evidence that there was a struggle near the wall."

you read the source correctly to post :

"The surviving evidence suggests that this enormously ambitious project was never completed."

Even though we have no way of proving the first, the second obviously contradicts your originally thesis of this 'feat' being impossible. So actually, the very notion of a Northern invasion very well may have happened.


The greatest written record surviving from that period, the Illiad, talks about a self-destructive war. Troy was destroyed around the same time as the other Mycenaean city-states, about fifty years before the Dorians. Put two and two together -the Mycenaean city states, and the Anatolian ones, had a self-destructive war.

Now this I can actually see some possibility in having happend. The reason for the sack of Troy obviously wasn't Helen, nor some Kings wounded pride for being deceived by his wife.

Theseus invades Crete by sea

Theseus never invaded, the myth suggests that he was selected among the youth given to Minos as the third tribune.

The watcher-by-the-sea-tablets say that there was a threat of Pylos being destroyed by sea. The Dorians did not invade by sea, nor did they ever attempt to invade by sea.

This totally is wrong.
The tablets also known as 'O-KA tablets' mention nothing related to invasions nor preparations. These tablets simply indicate that there was a 'high ranking officer' (there are also suggestions of of a translation as 'rower') with troops stationed on the shores of Messinia.
So the invasion theories, either Doric or other were connected to these tablets by archeologists that literally jumped to the conclusion that there was a preparation. But this in reality could be nothing more than an everyday event.There is also Hooker's theory that has suggested that these tablets are related to agricultural endeavor.


Ekwesh: Ahhiyyawwa (from Anatolia)

Ahhiyawa mentioned in Hittite texts don't seem to be from Anatolia. There are texts that mention Attarissyas the Ahhiyawan attacking Cyprus. The connection to Agammemnon's father Atreus is more than obvious and this is the reason they are believed to be the Acheans.

As you can see, three of the tribes are Italic, four are Anatolian, one is Cretan, and only one is from mainland Greece, if even that (they could also be from Crete). All these locations, Crete, Italy, and Anatolia, are tied together in mythology as being ruled over by the sons of Asterius.

What does 'is Cretan' mean, we are discussing Sea Peoples which are estimated to have appeared and 'invaded' approximately 1200.
So based on archeologic finds we know that Crete at that time had already been conquered by the Myceneans since 1450. So the Peleshet obviously were Greek.

Not that this 'theory' fits the timeline that should be follwed since Minos, based on the date given to his palace ruled sometime around 1600, but who ruled Italy ?

Does Homer really mention Dorians? Could you post the passage.

The exact word used isn't Dorian but he uses 'Herakleide'

Iliad 2.654

" ' ' "
(Tlepolemus, son of Heracles)

 

Just a suggestion.
Don't you think that there sould be some credit given to 'darthmouth.edu' after all that copy/paste ??

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  Quote Maljkovic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 12:24
And furthermore, if the threat came from the sea, why build a giant wall to the North? Not much logic in that...
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  Quote St. Francis of Assisi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 19:51
Hold on:

There is no evidence of the Dorians invading as early as 1220-1170 BC. The first mention of the Dorians is far after this. Now, there is no evidence that the Dorians destroyed Mycenaean civilization. Very few people still hold on to that belief, among them Maju. All the evidence points to blocs of Mycenaean cities and states fighting each other.

As for the wall, the enemy could have come by sea and by land -as there was no just one enemy, but many.

About Theseus, you are not familiar with the legend. After Theseus sets foot on Crete, there is a prophecy that he will one day kill the king, and after he becomes king he actually does invade Crete.

On the Watcher-by-the-Sea tablets, they mention that this official was guarding against enemies.

The Ahhiyyawwa were on the shores of Anatolia. Letters from King Mursili II prove this.

As per your Crete observations, they are wrong. Civilization did not end on Crete, it was just Hellenized. However, it was not a vassal of Mycenae. Minos II lived three generations before the Trojan War. You are confusing him with Minos I who founded Crete.

Heraklidae has been interpreted to mean Dorians. But the legends of the descendants of Herakles were created by the Dorians to justify their coming to Greece.

Now, I would like to see some evidence that there was a Dorian invasion, and some evidence that the Dorians did destroy the Mycenaeans. All the evidence points to the contrary.

The only person who holds that the Mycenaeans were destroyed by Dorians was Desbourough (1966), and he did not have access to as much information as now.

I then have two points, and I would like to see anyone post evidence to the contrary:

1. Aegean civilization was destroyed in a series of self-destructive wars, combined with natural calamities. It was not destroyed by a single tribe of invaders from the north or wherever.

2. The Dorians migrated to Greece and filled the power vacuum left by the Mycenaeans. They were not responsible for the collapse of Mycenaean power.


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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 21:16

First I never mentioned invasion, I clearly mentioned its an outdated theory which does indicate that I don't agree with it. So half your post if directed towards me is an obvious misunderstanding.

Theseus NEVER attacked Crete. I insist you read Apollodorus who is obviously far more qualified than either of us on the exact presentation of the myths.

I managed to find a summary of the text as presented by Perseus.tufts.

"THESEUS. Book III., Chap. XVI., Epitome, I.1-24.

On growing up Theseus quits Troezen for Athens, kills Periphetes, Sinis, 3.16.1., the Crommyonian sow, Sciron, Cercyon and Damactes, Epitome,1-4. Aegeus, instigated by Medea, sends Theseus against the Marathonian bull and offers him a cup of poison, 5-6. Theseus, with the help of Ariadne, conquers the Minotaur, and flying with Ariadne resigns her to Dionysus in Naxos, 7-9, and on the death of Aegeus succeeds to the kingdom of Athens, 10-11. Daedalus and his son Icarus escape from the labyrinth: Icarus falls into the sea, but Daedalus reaches the court of Cocalus, whose daughters kill Minos, 12-15. Theseus marries an Amazon, and afterwards Phaedra. Death of Hippolytus. 16-19. Ixion and his wheel, 20. Battle of the Centaurs and Lapiths, 21. (Zenobius). Caeneus, 22. Theseus goes down to hell with Pirithous, but is freed by Hercules, and being expelled from Athens is murdered by Lyomedes, 23-24."


I do believe Apollodorus would mention the event had it took place.


As for the Ahhiyawa do read what J.D. Hawkins has to say :

"The scattered references to it suggested that it lay across the sea and that its interests often conflicted with those of the Hittites. What is now known of the geography of western Anatolia makes it clear that there could be no room on the mainland for the kingdom of Ahhiyawa. Furthermore, the references to the political interests of Ahhiyawa on the west coast mesh well with increasing archaeological evidence for Mycenaean Greeks in the area, so that it is now widely accepted that "Ahhiyawa" is indeed the Hittite designation for this culture."

http://www.archaeology.org/0405/etc/troy3.html

 

What you say about the Herakleide myth is a mere speculation. Archology has proven to us that these myths, considered as fairy-tales by some do provide significant information of actual events. For example, there is the Romus, Romulus myth that was recently proven to hold alot of truth, we know that the Iliad was real, so was the story of the Argonauts. Why totally discredit this myth and based on what facts ?


As for the O-KA tablets, they mention guarding yes, but not related to a definite invasion which is why I said that this may have very well been an everyday event. I do believe every city state took some kind of measures of precaution against a probable attack from neighbors or foreigners that they traded with..

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  Quote St. Francis of Assisi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 22:03
My post was directed towards you and Maju.

I'm sorry, I had my information wrong. However, I was trying to prove to Maju that there are records of a destruction by sea from mythology.

As for the Heraklidae, there is no mention in Homer's Illiad. "Heraklidae" simply means "Son of Heracles", and Homer was referring to a specific son of Heracles not to any tribe that invaded from the North. The tying in of the arrival of the Dorians to Greece's greatest hero would justify their coming, no?

The "Historical Atlas of the Ancient World" places Ahhiyyawa on the coasts of Anatolia. Every source I've seen does place it there. I don't know where J.D. Hawkins is getting his information.

But I am interested, what is your theory as to the collapse of the Mycenaean civilization, and as to the arrival of the Dorians?
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 23:01
If you are talking to me, Saint, I never said half the things you mean to counter. I never said that civilization ended in Crete with Greek invasion nor I mentioned Theseus.

I believe that the Ahhiyawa are the Achaeans acting as Sea Peoples invading and pillaging the coasts of Anatolia, wether in Cyprus or in Troy.

I also think that the Dorians effectively conquered Mycenae because as, mentioned by Akritas at the start of this topic, the dates of the burnings and the dates given by the sagas are incredibly coincident.

But well, it may be that the Mycenean kings burned their own palaces and told to the Dorians: "come hear and rule our peoples instead of us..."

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  Quote St. Francis of Assisi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 10:06
My last post was directed towards VaZeLoS

The Mycenaeans were a culture not a unified people. You are assuming that the sagas are true, and are seeking to find evidence to support it. You are assuming your hypothesis true and selecting evidence to find it. That is ridiculous.

There were many Mycenaean kings, not all under the rule of Mycenae. The archaeological record shows us that the destruction of Aegean civilization was complete 30-40 years before the Dorians arrived.

So, no, you do not need to twist my words. Would you say that King Priam burnt Troy to the ground? No! The greatest conflict in Western literature is about a part of the self-destructive war that ended Aegean civilization.

On the other hand, there is no evidence of Dorians at the time. There is no evidence that when the Dorians arrived they fought others. The sagas of the Heraklidae were probably crafted by Dorians to justify their arrival. They filled a vacuum that had already been created.
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  Quote Maljkovic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 12:34

If there are two sides in a war, one will be the winner, the other will lose. One will survive no matter what. Same goes for any number of sides, if all Achean city-states fought among themselves, one of them had to win over the others. The only way for all to lose was an intervention of a foreign power, and I don't believe the Sea People were that power.

The wall of Corinth makes even less sense now. Corinth had many neighbours to the South, like Mycenae, Sparta, Tyrinth etc. But to the North there was only Athens. If the war was among Achean city-states, it would make far better logic for Corinthians to build a wall to the South, since the threat was greater from that side.  

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  Quote St. Francis of Assisi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 22:02
The only city-state that survived was Athens. It would be stupid to attempt to seal off the Peloponesse from the south. In any case, it appears that there were two blocs -the Anatolians, and the Peloponessians. The other city-states may have allied with these tribes. In any case, Corinth was allied with Mycenae.

Now, why does every war have to have one side that survives? Did Russia "win" WWII? It was just as badly beaten as Germany. Mutual self-destruction -a pyrrhic victory.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2006 at 00:06
It could well be that the winning side (Greek alliance) got so exausted that it became easy prey, that the pillages were improductive adventures that only left a weak socio-political structure. That winners paid expensive their victory - becoming themselves easy prey for third parties (the Dorians).

Those among you that are more familiar with Grek mythology, what do the sagas say? If I'm not wrong the winners return to their cities to struggle with their (mostly tragic) destinies - but I don't recall the details.

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  Quote Maljkovic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2006 at 06:26

Even so, building a wall that seals off a whole peninsula is a very expensive enterprise. And for what? To protect them from Athens?  

From the look of things, it was Athens who need to seal itself off from the rest of the Peloponesean powers who outnumbered her by far.

Maju, that is exactly what I am talking about. The only question is who that power was.

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