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Was there a Dorian Invasion?

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  Quote St. Francis of Assisi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Was there a Dorian Invasion?
    Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 16:00
Beginning about 1150 BC, the Dorians, a Hellenic group from the north of present-day Greece, invaded the Mycenaean civilization. In mythology, their coming is symbolized by the return of the Heraklides.

However, the razing of several Mycenaean centers to the ground, thought to be a result of the Dorians, is now in doubt, as the destruction of the centers took place before the arrival of the Dorians. The only certain evidence we have of a Dorian influx is the change in pottery, the suppression of the Mycenaean language, and the advent of iron. However, all these, are more evident of a Dorian assimilation and migration than of a Dorian invasion.

So, I pose the question: Was there a Dorian invasion, or a Dorian migration?
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 16:31

According Herodotus mother home of Dorians (Hylleis, Pamphyloi, and the Dymanes) during the Deucalion Kingdom were in the Pthiotis (middle Greece, close to Thessalia)  and during Doros Kingdom were in the Histiaiotis (Thessalia) region. When Cadmeians they turned out from there, Dorians it dwelt in Pindos and was called Makednian.

Thence moved afterwards to Dryopis (middle Greece)  and from Dryopis it came finally to Peloponnesus (displacing the native Achaeans), and began to be called Dorian.

Dorians was a tribe migrated from its place to other and  in any direction (Macedonia, Thessaly, Peloponnisos, Rhodos, Crete  e.t.c.).

Now if we accept Herodotus work, Mythology (as you said) and finally the archaeological data, we found that Dorians never invaded outside to inside.

The Dorians originated from north, northwestern Greece ( Macedonia and Epirus). From these points they began to invade toward the south, into the center of mainland Greece, and then to the Peloponnesian, and the southern Aegean islands. Once their invasions of central Greece ceased, their descent to southern Greece produced waves of invasions through the Peloponnesus, into Crete, and westward to Rhodes. Dorian invasion in the Peloponnese is dated on the basis of the catalogues of the Spartan kings to 1148 B.C. or 1104 B.C. according to two different calculations, that little differ from the years 1125 B.C. or 1120 B.C. provided by archaeological data concerning the same event

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  Quote St. Francis of Assisi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 16:56
The Mycenaean civilization collapsed before the Dorians came. As such, the Dorians were not the cause of their collapse, and the associated destruction is no longer associated with Dorians. Then, the Dorians would be a migration in my opinion not an invasion.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 17:33
Saint: repeating a pre-concieved idea is not any reasoning much less evidence.

Akritas has replied with solid data. Honor his knowledge with a good reasoned reply or a humble acceptance.

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  Quote St. Francis of Assisi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 17:49
The destruction was before the Dorians. You want evidence?

Here is a list of significant sites destroyed:

(1) The so-called "houses outside the walls" at Mycenae (House of the Oil Merchant, House of Shields, House of Sphinxes, West House), located on a series of terraces south of Grave Circle B, were destroyed by fire in LH IIIB1 (1300-1230 BC). Wace concluded, from the evidence of stirrup jars filled with oil whose necks had been smashed off, that the fire was purposefully set after oil had been poured over the basement of the House of the Oil Merchant.

(2) The so-called "Potter's Shop" at Zygouries, probably a country mansion or even a small palace, was destroyed by fire in the LH IIIB1 period (1300-1230 BC).

(3) The "palace" and citadel of Gla were destroyed by fire. Recent excavations at the site by Iakovides have confirmed that this destruction occurred early in the LH IIIB period (1300-1190 BC), at which time the Copac Basin may well have been reflooded.

(4) There are some grounds for believing that part, if not all, of the later or so-called "New" Palace at Thebes was destroyed at this time, although not by fire.

Here are constructions conducted during the 13th century:

(1) The fortifications at Mycenae were strengthened and an underground water supply system was added, presumably to allow the defenders to withstand a protracted siege (Phases 2 and 3 in the evolution of the citadel at Mycenae).

(2) The fortifications at Tiryns were strengthened, the citadel was substantially enlarged by the addition of the Unterburg (Lower Citadel), the storage facilities within the fortified area were enormously expanded with the construction of the East and South Galleries, in addition to numerous vaulted chambers within the thickness of the Unterburg's fortification wall, and an underground water supply system was again added in a final stage of construction to give the fortress adequate resources in the case of a prolonged siege (Phases 2 and 3 in the evolution of the citadel at Tiryns).

(3) Cyclopean fortifications were constructed around the Acropolis in Athens, and in a late stage of the LH IIIB period a subterranean water supply system was added to this citadel as well.

(4) A massive program of fortification was initiated at the Isthmus of Corinth in the form of a wall which was evidently intended to seal off the Peloponnese from invasion by land forces from the north. The surviving evidence suggests that this enormously ambitious project was never completed.


It is clear that the Mycenaeans were being destroyed before the Dorians -the only new constructions in the 13th century were for defensive measures.

Mycenae and Tiryns were both destroyed shortly after 1190 BC, possibly due to an earthquake that affected the entire Argolid plain. The lower town of Tiryns was actually flooded.

Nauplion, Berbati, Prosymna, and Midea, were all destroyed in the same event -an earthquake.

Nemea-Tsoungiza and Zygouries were abandoned around the same time.

That's just in the Argolid.

The Mycenaean civilization collapsed far before the Dorians.
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 18:01

Your thread is the Dorian Invasion or when happened  the collapse of Mycenaean civilization ?

Dorian Invasion happened in the Geometric Period when the Mycenaen collapse done in the late bronge age according the archaelogical evidence.The collapse of Mycenaean civilization was not an isolated occurrence.



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  Quote St. Francis of Assisi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 18:08
I am showing that seeing as the only evidence for an "invasion" predates the Dorians, and the collapse of the Mycenaeans, the Dorians did not "invade" Mycenaean Greece and destroy it.

As such, there is then no evidence that there was a Dorian invasion as opposed to a Dorian migration. Of course, you can feel free to prove me wrong.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 18:10
Originally posted by akritas

Your thread is the Dorian Invasion or when happened  the collapse of Mycenaean civilization ?



It is an offshot of the Sea Peoples thread. He beleieves that Mycenean Greeks were not at the core of the Sea Peoples but rather their victims. He also seems to beleive that it was the Sea Peoples and not the Dorians who destroyed the Mycenean civilization.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 18:14
Saint: while I see your knowledge, I don't see any fact that points to something diferent than pressure from the North (Dorians).

If we follow the Greek myth (return of the Heraklides), these Heraklides (who supposedly lead the Dorian invasion) wee trying to take Mycenae and Argos for several generations - that may be a whole century or even more.

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  Quote St. Francis of Assisi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 18:17
The archaeological evidence for the Dorians begins after the destruction of the Mycenaeans has occurred. The Dorians did not cause said destruction. The Watcher-by-the-Sea tablets suggest that the enemy attacked by sea from the south. The attempt to seal off the Peloponessus suggests they also attacked from the North. They were not a single tribe, but many. The Sea Peoples were not Mycenaeans -Mycenaean mercanaries might have been hired. In the first invasion of the Sea Peoples, they are Italo-Anatolian, and in the second they are Italo-Trojo-Mycenaean, and supported by Libyans.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 18:30
Which are those "Watcher-by-the-sea-Tablets"? What do they say?

Anyhow, take the attitude of a military commander: sealing the isthmus against naval invaders is futile. It can only work if the invaders come mainly or exclussively by land.

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  Quote St. Francis of Assisi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 19:47
Maju,

The sealing of the isthmus was never completed -it was simply abandoned because, somehow, Corinth was sacked, but not from the North -from the sea. As I said, the cause of the fall of the Mycenaean civilization was probably a self-destructive war, in some tribes of the Sea Peoples, i.e. the Lukka and the Peleset, may have been aggressors, and other tribes, i.e. the Denyen, Weshesh, and Tjekker, may have been refugees from it.

There was no one foreign enemy. There were probably leagues of city states joined together. The Peloponessus and Athens appear to have been allied -these are the "Mycenaeans", and perhaps the Anatolian city-states were allied i.e. the Trojans. As these powerful city states fought with each other, a power vacuum was invaded. There may have been a period of anarchy. After all is said and done, the Dorians come in.

The fact that the isthmus was sealed shows that there were invaders from the North. The fact that Messenia was in danger of an invasion by sea shows that there were seaborne invaders from the south. Taking Homer's Illiad into account, there was a war between the Aegean civilizations of the day. However, this war was not the Aegean civiliztaions vs. the Dorians.

The Watchers-by-the-Sea tablets are Linear B tablets from Pylos that talk about watchers being set up by the sea in Messenia for fear of a naval invasion. Later, the palace of Pylos was burnt, some (Mylonas, 1966) have suggested, by these "pirates".
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 09:34
Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by akritas

Your thread is the Dorian Invasion or when happened  the collapse of Mycenaean civilization ?



It is an offshot of the Sea Peoples thread. He beleieves that Mycenean Greeks were not at the core of the Sea Peoples but rather their victims. He also seems to beleive that it was the Sea Peoples and not the Dorians who destroyed the Mycenean civilization.

Thanks Maju, now I get the picture

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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 09:49

Originally posted by St. Francis of Assisi

The archaeological evidence for the Dorians begins after the destruction of the Mycenaeans has occurred. The Dorians did not cause said destruction. The Watcher-by-the-Sea tablets suggest that the enemy attacked by sea from the south. The attempt to seal off the Peloponessus suggests they also attacked from the North. They were not a single tribe, but many. The Sea Peoples were not Mycenaeans -Mycenaean mercanaries might have been hired. In the first invasion of the Sea Peoples, they are Italo-Anatolian, and in the second they are Italo-Trojo-Mycenaean, and supported by Libyans.

Can you tell  me  please where all these mentioned(bold) ?

As about the period that you mention The Late Helladic III (1400-1150 B.c.) or full Mycenaean Late Bronze Age] shows cultural unity at an urban economic level, some sort of "Achaean" political confederacy, and enough enterprise to take over Minoan relations with Egypt and to expand to Sicily, Macedonia, Rhodes, and Cyprus after the destruction of Knossos and other great Minoan cities about 1400. Patriarchal or proto-feudal government and shift in.religious emphasis suggested in Homer for the slow end of the period seem undeveloped compared to palace archives, urban economy, spatial cultural unity, great numbers of collective chamber-tombs to house the dead of an increased population, and improved farming methods (irrigation, etc.).

The Submycenaean (ca. 1180-1080 B.c.) overlaps  the last L.H. III, shows continuous standardized decline which is clear in pottery styles, change in burial rite to single inhumations, further development of such new L.H. I11 culture traits as the violin-bow fibula and leaf-shaped sword, use of iron (cf. Argostoli museum), and increased local diversity.

Though ceramically continuous with the Submycenaean, the Protogeometric (ca. 1100-900 B.c.)" shows more local diversity in cremation, in pottery variants like the "Doric" ware at Asine, in use of iron, and in reoccupation on reduced scale of previously burnt Mycenaean sites. This suits penetration of Dorian and other northwestern highlanders into the circum-Isthmian area, and the great trans-Aegean migrations.

The Geometric period (ca. 950-650 B.C.) takes local diversity in potteryand art styles still further, and shows houses inferior to Mycenaean ones.

So is obvious, without speculations  that Dorian invasion started with the end of the Mucenean Civilization(Geometric Period). And those are some of the archaleogical evidence



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  Quote St. Francis of Assisi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 10:12
The use of iron, introduction of the violin-bow fibula, inhumation burials, and decline in workmanship, are all introduced to the Mycenaean Greeks beginning with the LHIIIC period, and the earliest that has ever been found dates to the very last phases of the LHIIIB2 period. From that, it shows that there may have been some contact with the Dorians as early as 1140 BC, but the earliest migration/invasion took place 1130-1080 BC.

As I showed previously, all major destructions and repopulations of the Mycenaean centers occur during the LHIIIB1 and early LHIIIB2 periods. As such, the Mycenaeans could not have been destroyed by Dorians.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 10:59
Originally posted by St. Francis of Assisi

Maju,

The sealing of the isthmus was never completed -it was simply abandoned because, somehow, Corinth was sacked, but not from the North -from the sea.


I don't know which is the reason for that conclussion. The way you expose your theories is that you have a pre-concieved idea and therefore everything happened that way (hjow could it be otherwise - ).

But without fact to back your claims, I'm not persuaded.

Technically the Heraklidae invaded the Peloponesos by sea: they crossed the strait of Rio, or so their legend says.

As I said, the cause of the fall of the Mycenaean civilization was probably a self-destructive war, in some tribes of the Sea Peoples, i.e. the Lukka and the Peleset, may have been aggressors, and other tribes, i.e. the Denyen, Weshesh, and Tjekker, may have been refugees from it.


Why?



There was no one foreign enemy. There were probably leagues of city states joined together. The Peloponessus and Athens appear to have been allied -these are the "Mycenaeans", and perhaps the Anatolian city-states were allied i.e. the Trojans. As these powerful city states fought with each other, a power vacuum was invaded. There may have been a period of anarchy. After all is said and done, the Dorians come in.


That's pretty unlikely. The destruction of Troy, which was accompanied surely by that of their Hittite allies, left Asia Minor without sizeable powers - and despite the Phrygian and Lydian "interregnum" it would be that way until the Ottomans. I don't think Myletus could invade Greece on its own - or with the Lycian pirates only.

Sure that the situation was more complex but not what you say.



The fact that the isthmus was sealed shows that there were invaders from the North. The fact that Messenia was in danger of an invasion by sea shows that there were seaborne invaders from the south. Taking Homer's Illiad into account, there was a war between the Aegean civilizations of the day. However, this war was not the Aegean civiliztaions vs. the Dorians.

The Watchers-by-the-Sea tablets are Linear B tablets from Pylos that talk about watchers being set up by the sea in Messenia for fear of a naval invasion. Later, the palace of Pylos was burnt, some (Mylonas, 1966) have suggested, by these "pirates".


That's true: I was ignorant about these tablets but they do not prove that the actual invaders came from the sea, specially when we do have accounts that say otherwise. Not a single mythological account tells of a naval invasion of Greece, they talk about the Dorian invasion from the north - with or without the Heraklidae.

You seem to have built your theories in preconcieved ideas not in facts:  the watcher-by-the-sea tablets don't say that Pylos was destroyed by a naval invasion - instead Greek sources say it was invaded by Dorians from the NE.


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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 11:41
I will said another hypothetical story as about the collapse. The possibility is that floods and earthquakes together unsettled the Bronze Age world. Eberhard Zangger, a geoarchaeologist in Switzerland, has explored the combined geological and archaeological evidence for such forces in the Late Bronze Age. One compelling example for Zangger is Tiryns, in the Greek Argolid, where he discovered evidence of a massive flood that buried part of the settlement near the end of the period of greatest Mycenaean power.
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  Quote Maljkovic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 15:34

Natural disasters can destroy entire cities and decimate the population, but they cannot destroy entire civilisations on their own. No matter of the magnitude, there will still be people left behind, and they eventually will rebuild, maybe in smaller scale, but highly similar to that which had been destroyed. Only if the destruction is followed by an enemy invasion, will the civilization be changed.

 

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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 16:05

Maljkovic  the collapses  of the Cretan and the Cycleadan Civilizations are the great examples of natural disaster

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 16:46
I suspect that enerally speaking Maljkovic is right. His observation seems very logical.

Crete didn't collapse due to natural disaster only: it was invaded by Greeks. I'm uncertain about Cycladeans. You may want to open a topic or write an article about them - I'm very interested in learning more about the timeline of Cycladean civilization.

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