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Topic ClosedWas Alexander an ethnic greek?

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Was Alexander an ethnic greek?
    Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 10:54

Originally posted by RomiosArktos

Originally posted by bg_turk


Unlike moder day Greece which has ethnically cleansed anything non-greek from its share of Macedonia in 1911, the Republic of Macdonia is still a multicultural republic where minarets and churches can be seen side by side in many places.
Accusations of Macedonians beings fascist do not cut much coming from you, sorry.


The republic of Skopia can claim to be democratic and multicultural and I don't CARE. However, distorting the truth and claiming anything that has to do with the Greek heritage of Macedonia is a fascist behavior for me.Doing genetic research to prove that they are the Macedonians while the Greeks are Africans speaks volumes about their being rascists.Personally I don't care if this state is a multicultural republic or not.

What is racist and facist is the Greek behavior of monopolizing Macedonian Heritage and cultivating a culture of Balkan supremacy.

What is racist and facist is the occupation of Aegean Macedonia and its ethnic cleansing from all the slavic Macedonians.

What is racist and facist is the imposition of an economic blockade and the threats of invasion of a country just because of its name.

There is no country in the entire world throughout the whole of history but Greece that would refuse to recognize, impose economic embargoes and actively lobby against a country just because of its name. I know of no single precedent to such a racist and facist behavior.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 11:11

Originally posted by RomiosArktos

You have already claimed that Macedonians could not participate in the ancient Olympic games,yet the Macedonians did participate.

Scholars are quite clear on that, and you would have noticed it if you had read some of the sources I provided to you: 

 It was also at this time that he took the culminating step of presenting himself at the Olympic Games and demanding admission as a competitor. (The date is not attested, but 476 the first opportunity after the war, seems a reasonable guess.) In support, he submitted a claim to descent from the Temenids of Argos, which would make him a Greek, and one of the highest extraction. With the claim, inevitably, went a royal genealogy going back for six generations, which(again) we first encounter on this occasion. We have no way of judging the authenticity of either the claim or the evidence that went with it, but it is clear that at the time the decision was not easy. There were outraged protests from the other competitors, who rejected Alexander I as a barbarian--which proves, at the least, that the Temenid descent and the royal genealogy had hitherto been an esoteric item of knowledge. However, the Hellanodikai decided to accept it-- whether moved by the evidence or by political considerations, we again cannot tell. In view of the time and circumstances in which the claim first appears and the objections it encountered, modern scholars have often suspected that it was largely spun out of the fortuitous resemblance of the name of the Argead clan to city of Argos; with this given, the descent (of course) could not be less than royal, i.e., Temenid.

With the exception of the single item, no Macedonian king between Alexander I and Philip II is in anyway connected with the Olympic or indeed with any other Greek games. There is not (so far, at any rate; though this may change) even another Argive tripod. Another item deserves comment is this connection. It is said to have been Archelaus (and here the evidence is more reliable) who founded peculiarly Macedonian Olympics at Dium. We might call them counter- Olympics, for everyone know where the real Olympic Games were celebrated. It is possible that Archelaus, trying to revive Alexander's claim at Olympia(and Euripides development of his lineage perhaps was intended as further support), either had difficulties in gaining acceptance or was even rejected, despite the precedent. Such decisions might change with political expediency, and there were certain to be some Greeks who would challenge his qualifications and provide a reason for a new investigation. The suggestion is not based only on the establishment of the counter-Olympics. As it happens, even Euripides manufacture of an older and unimpeachable Temenid descent did not convince everyone. When Archelaus attacked Thessalian Larisa, Thrasymachus wrote what was to become a model oration On Behalf of the Larisaeans. Only one sentence happens to survive: "Shall we be slaves to Archelaus, we, being Greeks, to a barbarian?" Ironically, it is based on a line by Euripides. Now, that is an odd piece of rhetoric, as applied to Archelaus. Its significance is not merely to demonstrate that as late as c. 400 B.C. the official myth of the Temenid descent of the Argead kings could be derided...

by Ernst Badian
(from Harvard University's Department of History)

Source: http://www.gate.net/~mango/Badian.htm

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 11:21
Originally posted by akritas

Propably you was never in Skopjie

In the future I would like to ask you to refrain from such ridiculous statements (including the ones that I have never met greeks).

I have been to Skopie briefly, but I was not referring to Skopie, but to Ohrid and Bitola and Manastir, when I was saying that churches and mosques stand side by side.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 11:22

Originally posted by bg_turk

What is racist and facist is the Greek behavior of monopolizing Macedonian Heritage and cultivating a culture of Balkan supremacy.

What is racist and facist is the occupation of Aegean Macedonia and its ethnic cleansing from all the slavic Macedonians.

What is racist and facist is the imposition of an economic blockade and the threats of invasion of a country just because of its name.

 

There is no country in the entire world throughout the whole of history but Greece that would refuse to recognize, impose economic embargoes and actively lobby against a country just because of its name. I know of no single precedent to such a racist and facist behavior.

Look who's talking now for racism,fasism, invasion and occupation !!!!

You said for Greek  thread  against another country. Dear bg_turk I shall remind you that you are the one (your half nationality) that OCCUPIED a free UN coutry. And I ask you for the other half nationality (the Bulgarian)

Samuel was  Bulgarian or Slavmacedonian?

And as about your thread (as usually you destroyed) that the Macedonian Heritage is a part of the Greek Heritage as the Athenian, Ionian, Spartan e.t.c. You like it or not, Great Alexander  spread the Hellenic language and culture and not Slavic, Illyrian , Thrakian or paeonian.

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 11:26
Originally posted by bg_turk

Originally posted by akritas

Propably you was never in Skopjie

In the future I would like to ask you to refrain from such ridiculous statements (including the ones that I have never met greeks).

I have been to Skopie briefly, but I was not referring to Skopie, but to Ohrid and Bitola and Manastir, when I was saying that churches and mosques stand side by side.

 

In the future you must be more carefull regarding my national (and specially my Macedonian heritage). And as about the other cities Monastiri and Bitola are the same cities!!!! 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 11:28
Originally posted by akritas

And still wait my answer. Samuel was Bulgarian or Macedonjian bg_turk ?
 
Tsar samuil was a Tsar of the Bulgarian Tsardom, of which Slavic Macedonians were then a part.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 11:39

hahahaha!!!!!!!!

You bring a map from the FYROMian nationalistic website

http://faq.macedonia.org/images/car.samuil.mapa.jpg

The same site that said Basil I and Samuel were Slavmacedonians!!!!

But you Didn't answer Bulgarian or Slavmacedonian ?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 11:46

And from the same propagandistic site that mention Samuel as Slavmacedonian. A picture from the 14th cent (I think) that mentionn in GREEK Samuel as Bulgar

http://faq.macedonia.org/images/samoil.madrid.1.jpg

 

OVER AND OUT because this topic guided as the other that you opened bg_turk



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 12:06
Originally posted by akritas

http://faq.macedonia.org/images/car.samuil.mapa.jpg

 I suppose this sight is also making "FYROMian propaganda" (for those of you who do not understand, "FYROM" is what Greeks call the Republic of Macedonia)

http://kodeks.uni-bamberg.de/Bulgaria/BulgariaHistMaps.htm

But you Didn't answer Bulgarian or Slavmacedonian ?

Slavic Macedonians were part of the Bulgarian Empire at the time, which also included Serbia. Most SlavoMacedonians probably considered themselves to be Bulgarian, in the same way as GrecoMacedonians considered themselves to be Byzantine.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 12:13
BG_Turk:

Both Macedonians and Bulgarians are Slavs, and are basically the same people. There is no conceivable reason on earth for Macedonia to exist, when 25% of Macedonians, and possibly more, declare themselves to not be Macedonians. The rest of Macedonia should just be joined with Bulgaria, in my opinion. Neither Bulgarians nor Macedonians are connected with Thracians or Macedonians.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 12:26
The topic is about whether Alexander was an ethnic Greek, I would be glad to discuss whether the Republic of Macedonia should exist or not in another topic.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 13:01
After having received complaints about the way this discussion is conducted, I would like to ask everyone to remain civilised and abstain from personal and national insults.
Please stick to AE's code of conduct, otherwise this thread will be closed, as have many others on the same subject.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 13:04
Originally posted by bg_turk

What is racist and facist is the Greek behavior of monopolizing Macedonian Heritage and cultivating a culture of Balkan supremacy.

What is racist and facist is the occupation of Aegean Macedonia and its ethnic cleansing from all the slavic Macedonians.

What is racist and facist is the imposition of an economic blockade and the threats of invasion of a country just because of its name.

You use harsh words with much ease and I think an apology is in irder here.

What you say above are your words and in no way the reality. I myself do not agree with Greek policies on the matter but on:

1. Why don't you see it in the way that Slavomacedonians are misappropriating Greek/Macedonian heritage?

2. The area was "ethnically cleansed" in the beginning of the 20th century, as a result of the Greek/Bulgarian effort to dominate in the area. True, the Greeks were victorious and the result was that most Bulgarians left the area, same as did the Greeks in Bulgaria.

3. The embargo was in response of a clause of the FYROM constitution that was mentioning that FYROM represented also Slavomacedonians out of FYROM borders and their obligation to "liberate" them, thus implying territorial claims to Greece and Bulgaria. It's now over for more than 5 years and has lasted less than 2. Furthermore, Greece is the biggest investor in FYROMacedonia, it's donating free arms and economic support to the country and is politically guaranteeing FYROM independence and territorial integrity. Numerous citizens of the neighboring country are working in Greece and have only the best feelings towards Greece.

I have met with some in Athens and they laugh at these claims of them being anything different than Slavs.

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 13:37
Originally posted by akritas

An ethnic group according Ben Rafael  defined as a collective entity, the members of which share in common: (1) some primordial attributes such as religion, origin or history, language or "race"; (2) particular sociocultural features; and (3) a consciousness of constituting a group different from others belonging to the same setting.

Greek and Turkish nations have  all the mentioned critirias. In a general manner, four aspects, that is, primordial identity, practical meanings endowed to the ethnic cleavage, self-perceived cultural uniqueness, and the overall interpretation of a "collective plight" in society, specify the group's awareness of kind.

In your un-answered question if the Greek people is a multi-culture people  the same question can you said in a British, a French if are a multi-culture people. Are they ?

 

Ben Rafael's belief then seems politically motivated

Ethnic. Meaning. Ethnic, has no meaning, it is simply a politically motivated term applied to promote the beliefs of the user.

 

And I don't see the Greeks having any of the attributes Ben Rafael describes.

Greeks are not a race. They do not all share the same religion. The various religious beliefs people do have are international ones.  They are not the only Greek speakers. They don't have a culture of their own, they have a few unique customs but 99% of there culture from technology, to clothes, to sport and so on is international.

In fact the only unique thing that ties all Greek people together and seperates them from all others is Greek citizenship.

Ben Rafael's defination implies immigrants to Greece aren't Greek despite holding Greek citizenship. That's a very politically motivated belief system to hold.

 

Are Britain and France multi-cultural societies? We'll that's what they teach in school, what the government creates multimillion pound intiatives promoting and a simple look at the England football team should confirm. Britain also takes 100,000+ legal immgrants from commonwealth countries, mostly Indian and Africa each and every year. that's the whole population of Greece every decade.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 15:23

Paul which Hellenes do you speak for the ancients or  moderns ?

If you speak for the moderns your thaughts is similar with Fellemeyer and if you speak for ancient is closed enouph to Bernal

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 16:12
Originally posted by Yiannis

You use harsh words with much ease and I think an apology is in irder here.

You will notice that I was not the first one to use "facism" and "racism" in this dispute.

While I understand how my words can be insulting to some Greeks, I would like to note that that the words of some of the other members are equally insulting to the Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia, whose country has been condescendingly referred to as a "fyrom", it has been compared to a third world country, its history has been called fake and  fabrication, and some have gone as far as questioning whether it should exist in the first place.

I believe I am free to express my opinion on this forum even with the risk of insulting the sensitivities of Greek nationalists.  I will not appologize for expressing my opinion and excercising my right to freedom of speech.

But in any case I regret that some Greeks have been insulted by what I have said.  

1. Why don't you see it in the way that Slavomacedonians are misappropriating Greek/Macedonian heritage?

I do not support attempts by Slavic Macedonians to misappropriate the Ancient Macedonian heritage. I firmly believe that this heritage is the joint shared heritage of all Macedonians regardless of their ethnic origins, whether Greek or Slavic, and Greece does not have the right to present it to the world as an exclusively Greek heritage and to monopolize it.

2. The area was "ethnically cleansed" in the beginning of the 20th century, as a result of the Greek/Bulgarian effort to dominate in the area. True, the Greeks were victorious and the result was that most Bulgarians left the area, same as did the Greeks in Bulgaria.

Once again I would like to remind you that the ethnic cleansing of slavs from Macedonia was not a "population exchange". To suggest that the burning of homes and the destruction of villages is any form of a population exchange is an insult to the victims of that war of agression perpetuated by the Greek state. Greece was the victor of that war, so it had the power to impose its terms and conditions and to call a pure ethnic cleansing a "population exchange" - very similar to what Turkey has done in Cyprus - the only difference being that Greece succeeded in legalizing its land grab, whereas Turkey so far has failed.

3. The embargo was in response of a clause of the FYROM constitution that was mentioning that FYROM represented also Slavomacedonians out of FYROM borders and their obligation to "liberate" them, thus implying territorial claims to Greece and Bulgaria. It's now over for more than 5 years and has lasted less than 2. Furthermore, Greece is the biggest investor in FYROMacedonia, it's donating free arms and economic support to the country and is politically guaranteeing FYROM independence and territorial integrity. 

Greece imposed an economic embargo on its neighbour until it agreed to be referred to as the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" - a name which most of its inhabitants dislike.

Greece continues to abuse its EU membership and threatens to block Macedonia's  application if the the Republic doesn't comply with the Greek demands.

Numerous citizens of the neighboring country are working in Greece and have only the best feelings towards Greece.

I have met with some in Athens and they laugh at these claims of them being anything different than Slavs.

I wish it was as simple as that, but most of the Macedonians do not share the same enthusiasm given the continuing hostile policies of Greece.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 16:42

Originally posted by St. Francis of Assisi

BG_Turk:
Both Macedonians and Bulgarians are Slavs, and are basically the same people. There is no conceivable reason on earth for Macedonia to exist, when 25% of Macedonians, and possibly more, declare themselves to not be Macedonians. The rest of Macedonia should just be joined with Bulgaria, in my opinion. Neither Bulgarians nor Macedonians are connected with Thracians or Macedonians.

St. Francis of Assisi,

since we have gone off topic anyway, I believe I can answer your  post here.

First of all, I am sure many Bulgarians would welcome a unification between Macedonia and Bulgaria, but most of the Slavic Macedonians, and most importantly the Albanians, would never accept such an act. So I do not expect anything like that to happen in the near future.

By saying that Macedonia has no reason to exist in the first place you seem to suggest that only monoethnic states have the right to exist, whereas countries like Macedonia which consists of several ethnic groups should not exist.

In fact I strongly disagree with that. I believe the worst plague for the Balkans was the introduction of European Nationalism and the idea of creating nation states. As a result of such policies and the creation of states that supposedly belong to one nationality millions have found themselves on the wrong side of the border, have been ethnically cleansed, or even worse massacred.

If multiethnic states were created that would be the shared homes of their inhabitants, without any reference to ethnicity, such as Macedonia for instance, I believe we could have avoided a lot of bloodshed in the Balkans.

If we had learnt how to build multiethnic socieites and unite people around the concepts of equality, democracy and freedom, rather than those of ethnic origin or religion, we would have never seen the exile of Greeks from Asia Minor and Constantionple, Turks from Aegean Macedonia (mainly Selanik) and Bulgaria, the massacre against Armenians, or the Srebrenica massacres.

Most of the Balkans have failed this objective, and I hope the Republic of Macedonia will achieve being a true democracy. Unfortunately the attitude displayed by Greek nationalists (and Bulgarian nationalists for that matter) is not helpful at all.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 16:54
Well, why can't you partition Macedonia between Bulgaria and Albania? You talk about multi-ethnic states, but they are exactly what CANNOT work in the Balkans. They tried them in Yugoslavia, and what happened? Genocide of Bosnians and Albanians.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 17:09

Originally posted by St. Francis of Assisi

Well, why can't you partition Macedonia between Bulgaria and Albania? You talk about multi-ethnic states, but they are exactly what CANNOT work in the Balkans. They tried them in Yugoslavia, and what happened? Genocide of Bosnians and Albanians.

Where are you going to draw the borders? No matter how you do it, you are eventually going to cause bloodshed and ethnic cleansing. People in the Balkans are intermixed, there is no geographic seperation, you cannot draw clear cut borders like those in Western Europe.

Besides why stop with Macedonia? If you do it with Macedonia, why not do it with Bosnia too? Why not let the Serbs there join Serbia? Or Cyprus, why cant you partition Cyprus between the Turks and the Greeks?  Why not let Bulgarians in Easter Serbia join Bulgaria too? Why not let Hungarians in Romania join Hungary? or Turks in the Rhodopes and Thrace join Turkey?

The whole region will become defragmented again. This may be in accordance with the interests of western nations to keep the region under submission and weak by constantly fueling intercommunal violance and defragmenting it, but it is hardly in accordance with the best interests of the people in the Balkans.

What the people of the Balkans need is one strong multiethnic Balkan state for all ethnicities, which will be able to stand up to western imperialism. Of course Balkan people have been manipulted for too long, brainwashed for too long by nationalist propaganda, and clearly such wishes of a strong multiethnic state are just detached and unrealistic idealism. But maybe this can one day be achieved within the European Union.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 05:15

Originally posted by St. Francis of Assisi

Both Macedonians and Bulgarians are Slavs, and are basically the same people. There is no conceivable reason on earth for Macedonia to exist, when 25% of Macedonians, and possibly more, declare themselves to not be Macedonians. The rest of Macedonia should just be joined with Bulgaria, in my opinion.

Yes, that`s right.   

Neither Bulgarians nor Macedonians are connected with Thracians or Macedonians.

No, they are connected at least with the ancient thracians, because the ancient thracians were asimilated once and for all / conclusively by the bulgarian slavs, because the thracians were comparatively small number in the time when the slavic tribes were/have settled in the Balkan peninsula - in the begining of the VII century. The reason for the small number of the thracians in that time was the devastating barbarian incursions/inroads/raids in the Balkan peninsula between III - VII century.

I am not absolutely sure about the roots of the ancient macedonians. But i don`t care about that, because after the settling of the slavic tribes in the Balkan peninsula in the first half of VII century, the ethnic situation in Macedonia was totally/completely changed, except the town of Solun(Tessalonika), and the areas who are in the south of Olimpus mountain(in that areas one big part of the greek settlements survive - they was not destroied fully in the time of the barbarian invasions, and because of that the slavs and the greeks were living mixed).

I think that no matter what were the ancient macedonians, they were fully assimilated by the greeks in the early centuries of the existence of the Byzantine empire, or in the late centuries of the existing of the Roman empire. Because of that, when the slavs arrived in Macedonia, there were living only people who consider themselves as a greeks, aromanians and albanians. I am not sure what was the albanian ethnic areas in that time.

Originally posted by St. Francis of Assisi

You talk about multi-ethnic states, but they are exactly what CANNOT work in the Balkans. They tried them in Yugoslavia, and what happened? Genocide of Bosnians and Albanians.

YES, EXACTLY.

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