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bg_turk
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Topic: Was Alexander an ethnic greek? Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 16:50 |
Originally posted by St. Francis of Assisi
I think a distinction should be made between Hellenic in culture and Hellenic in ethnicity. The Ancient Macedonians were Hellenic in culture but not ethnicity, same with the Epirotes. The Illyrians and Thracians were Hellenic in neither culture nor ethnicity. However, the modern Macedonians are not the ancient Macedonians, nor are the modern Bulgarians the ancient Thracians. The modern Greeks are the ancient Greeks, and the modern Albanians are the ancient Illyrians. that pretty much sums this up.
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I pretty much agree with what you have said.
My only concern is that you use language as the only criteria of ancestral links when you say that Albanians and Greeks are ancestors of their ancient equivalents, but Macedonians and Bulgarians are not.
For example are the natives of the Andies, many of whom have adopted the Spanish language and have been assimilated into spanish culture, not decendants of the ancient Incas?
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Digenis
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 16:56 |
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St.Francis you are dogmatic-History is not.
I m waiting for any answer to any post from the starter of the topic. Unless the traditional turcic hit and run tactic is used again by him...
Edited by Digenis
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St. Francis of Assisi
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 17:07 |
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Digenis,
What have I said that is dogmatic?
Bg_Turk,
I am not using simply linguistics. The Bulgarians and Macedonians are Slavs, and we have a record of them invading their land. We have no such record of the Albanians and Greeks. I, being Italian, have no closely held beliefs, or personal bias, either way. I am only saying what is, in my mind, the most plausible alternative.
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Cheers, and Good Mental Health,
Herr Saltzman
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Spartakus
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 17:28 |
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If you do not know Hellenic,you are not a Hellen. If you do not know Hellenic history,you are not a Hellen. If you have not passed from the Hellenic educational system,you are not a Hellen. If you do not follow the Principles of the Hellenic Spirit and civilization,you are not a Hellen.
You do not born a Hellen,you become one.
If your parents are Hellen,and you know sh*t about Hellas,then you are a foreigner of Hellenic origin.
Hellenism is not just a race ,it's a mentality.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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bg_turk
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 17:38 |
Originally posted by RomiosArktos
Originally posted by bg_turk
Originally posted by Digenis
What exactly do u want to prove ?:
1.Ancient macedonians werent greeks ?
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yes, ancien macedonians were not ethnically greek.Bu they adopted some greek customs, and they viewed greek culture as a superior one.
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But what Herodotos said about their origins is pretty much clear.Are there any reason why we should be believe you and not Herodotos? Are you trying somehow to compare yourself with Herodotos?
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But there are many more sources:
Demosthenes:
"not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave" (Demosthenes, Third Philippic, 31).
Arrian:
"Greek mercenaries attacked the Macedonian phalanx the Macedonian centre did not set to with equal impetus and the Greeks attacked where they saw that the phalanx had been particularly torn apart. There the action was severe, the Greeks tried to push off the Macedonians into the river and to reserve victory to their own side There was also some emulation between antagonists of the Greek and Macedonian races" (Arrian 2.10.4-7).
Plutarch:
When you see the Greeks walking about among the Macedonians, do they not look to you like demi-gods among so many wild beasts? (Alex.51.2)
You can find more ancient quotes here:
http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/ancientevidence.html
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Spartakus
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 17:50 |
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Demosthenes was Anti-Macedonian and Anti-Phillipist.He did not want to see a
unified Hellas under Macedonia,but under Athens.What do you expect him
to say?That Macedonians were Hellens ,and everybody should join them?
Edited by Spartakus
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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bg_turk
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 17:50 |
Originally posted by Digenis
1.A little detail.... People of Eastern Empire were already speaking Greek,had Greek culture ,and most of them were Ethnically Greek.... [If u agree that this happened to Macedons too thats ok (being greek,speaking greek having greek culture before they beated the Polis)]
After 750 years of the Roman Conquest,500 of the christianization,350 after they became "Roman citizens" ,people of the region considered themselves "Rhomaioi"/"Romioi"-Romans-Byzantines. The same as in the other regions of Balcans and Anatolia. They were Orthodox Christians,and they were speaking Greek. |
These are riduclous assertions. The Byzantine empire, like most empires, was not an ethnically homogenous one, and although it was dominated by Greeks, Greeks were by far not the only ethnic group in that empire. The Byzantine Empire was a multiethnic empire, which encompassed territories that went far beyond than those that were traditionally inhabitted by the greeks, it was a multiethnic empire, and it united its subjects not around the concept of greekness, but around that of orthodox christianity.
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/RomanMacedonia/ByzantineEm pire.html
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bg_turk
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 17:52 |
Originally posted by Spartakus
If you do not know Hellenic,you are not a Hellen. If you do not know Hellenic history,you are not a Hellen. If you have not passed from the Hellenic educational system,you are not a Hellen. If you do not follow the Principles of the Hellenic Spirit and civilization,you are not a Hellen.
You do not born a Hellen,you become one.
If your parents are Hellen,and you know sh*t about Hellas,then you are a foreigner of Hellenic origin.
Hellenism is not just a race ,it's a mentality.
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These are the words of a true child of glorious Hellas. Go on! Hellas will be proud of you!
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Spartakus
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 17:54 |
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Anyway,we have talked about this a bizillion times.Search for previous topics and get your answers.
Alexander was Hellen from the time he learned Hellenic and followed Hellenic education.The rest are BS.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Spartakus
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 17:55 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
Originally posted by Spartakus
If you do not know Hellenic,you are not a Hellen. If you do not know Hellenic history,you are not a Hellen. If you have not passed from the Hellenic educational system,you are not a Hellen. If you do not follow the Principles of the Hellenic Spirit and civilization,you are not a Hellen.
You do not born a Hellen,you become one.
If your parents are Hellen,and you know sh*t about Hellas,then you are a foreigner of Hellenic origin.
Hellenism is not just a race ,it's a mentality.
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These are the words of a true child of glorious Hellas. Go on! Hellas will be proud of you! |
I hope this not a irony.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Digenis
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 18:02 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
Originally posted by Digenis
1.A little detail.... People of Eastern Empire were already speaking Greek,had Greek culture ,and most of them were Ethnically Greek.... [If u agree that this happened to Macedons too thats ok (being greek,speaking greek having greek culture before they beated the Polis)]
After 750 years of the Roman Conquest,500 of the christianization,350 after they became "Roman citizens" ,people of the region considered themselves "Rhomaioi"/"Romioi"-Romans-Byzantines. The same as in the other regions of Balcans and Anatolia. They were Orthodox Christians,and they were speaking Greek. |
These are riduclous assertions. The Byzantine empire, like most empires, was not an ethnically homogenous one, and although it was dominated by Greeks, Greeks were by far not the only ethnic group in that empire. The Byzantine Empire was a multiethnic empire, which encompassed territories that went far beyond than those that were traditionally inhabitted by the greeks, it was a multiethnic empire, and it united its subjects not around the concept of greekness, but around that of orthodox christianity.
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/RomanMacedonia/ByzantineEm pire.html
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I didnt speak about Greekness of Byzantine Empire. I said: Slav settlers found greek speaking orthodox people with greek-roman culture.(the descendants of ancient Macedons) Now tell me why these descendants would change their language from greek to a slavic-bulgarian dialect? And answer : How can u explain the existence of the native Greek population of Macedonia? When did they moved from Southern Greece to Northern?Provide me sources. If they didnt ,then arent they descendants of Anc.Macedonians?
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bg_turk
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 18:24 |
Originally posted by Digenis
I didnt speak about Greekness of Byzantine Empire. |
In fact you said:
People of Eastern Empire were already speaking Greek,had Greek culture ,and most of them were Ethnically Greek.... |
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I said: Slav settlers found greek speaking orthodox people with greek-roman culture.(the descendants of ancient Macedons)
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Please provide sources. Macedonians were ethnically distinct even during the Byzantine period. For instance there was a Macedonian dynasty of the Byzantine Empire:
http://faq.macedonia.org/history/mk.dynasty.byzantium.html
| How can u explain the existence of the native Greek population of Macedonia? |
In the same way the existence of Turks can be explained - they settled there, and assimilated the indigenous people into their culture.
But the ancient Macedonians were assimilated not only by the Greeks, but by the Slavs as well. Because of this reason Greece does not have the right to monopolize the Macedonian heritage, it belongs to all of the people of Macedonia, whether they are slavic or greek is irrelevant.
Edited by bg_turk
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St. Francis of Assisi
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 18:32 |
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Hold on:
The official language of the Byzantine Empire was Greek. That does not mean that every people under its auspices were Greeks or Greek-speakers -it is as absurd as saying that everyone in the Roman Empire was Latin and a Latin-speaker.
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Cheers, and Good Mental Health,
Herr Saltzman
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Digenis
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 18:37 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
1.Macedonians were ethnically distinct even during the Byzantine period. For instance there was a Macedonian dynasty of the Byzantine Empire:
| How can u explain the existence of the native Greek population of Macedonia? |
2.In the same way the existence of Turks can be explained - they settled there, and assimilated the indigenous people into their culture.
| 1.      U read sites from FYROM and science fiction a lot! Macedonian Dynasty(886-1056)of Byzantium    The name of the Dynasty is taken from the "Thema Makedonias", the province of Makedonia,which in 9th cent was actually a region of Eastern Thrace ,with capital Adrianoupolis (Edirne)in Turkey today. Basileios I o Makedon,was from a village outside Adrianoupolis. "scientists" of FYROM tend to adopt everything has the name "macedonian" in a way that turns ridicilous.-and seems that so some more people become ridiculous...  2.WHEN Greeks settled in Macedonia?? WHEN?Southern Greeks never conquered or colonised after 400 BC Macedonia.Or not? Can u answer?
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Zagros
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 18:47 |
Of course they were Greek, and if not, then they most certainly were not Slavs  .
Edited by Zagros
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bg_turk
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 19:15 |
Most of what was the Bulgarian Kingdom was called Makedonia at the time, could you explain why? Could it because Makedonia was associated with the Slavs?
For the last thousand years Macedonia has been overwhelmingly slavic until Greeks ethnically cleansed the region from all slavs in 1911. This is why you are so desperate to prove Alexander as a Greek, to justify your claims over Macedonia, in which in the beginning of the century greeks were a minority, and the greek army partitioned the region and occupied 51% of it.
"scientists" of FYROM tend to adopt everything has the name "macedonian" in a way that turns ridicilous.-and seems that so some more people become ridiculous...
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Historians in the Republic of Macedonia tend to exaggerate or misrepresent aspects of the history as do most historians in the Balkans, I hardly know of any history books that are in agreement, be they greek, turkish, bulgarian, or macedonian. In any case I am sure you will excuse this small shortcoming of the Republic of Macedonia historians, having in mind that your own historians have managed to steal macedonian heritage and have successfully marketed it as their own throught the Western World.
2.WHEN Greeks settled in Macedonia?? WHEN?Southern Greeks never conquered or colonised after 400 BC Macedonia.Or not? Can u answer?
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Are you examining me, or is it just me that feels like that?
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St. Francis of Assisi
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 19:22 |
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There are no people on this earth alive now who are pure, direct descendants of Alexander the Great.
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Cheers, and Good Mental Health,
Herr Saltzman
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Zagros
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 19:40 |
Wouldn't need to be "pure", all that they would need is a direct parternal line back to Alexander, I am sure there are at least a few thousand.
Maju, are you saying the classical Macedonians were Slavs?
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bg_turk
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 19:44 |
Originally posted by Zagros
Wouldn't need to be "pure", all that they would need is a direct parternal line back to Alexander, I am sure there are at least a few thousand.
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Is this just a guess?
By the way talking of paternal line all the back to Alexander, could you clarify for us how many children did Alexander actually have?
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are you saying the classical Macedonians were Slavs?
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This would be a ridiculous claim. Only nationalists from the Republic of Macedonia would make such claims. Alexander of Macedon was certainly not a slav, and certainly he was not a greek either. The macedons were a distinct people that have been gradually assimilated by the greeks and the slavs that later came to the region.
Edited by bg_turk
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BlindOne
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 19:51 |
Make me a favor Bg_Turk. You believe that ascient macedonians wasn't greek because they have genetic differences with the south greeks???  .
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That I am stricken and can't let you go
When the heart is cold, there's no hope, and we know
That I am crippled by all that you've done
Into the abyss, will I run
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