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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Was Alexander an ethnic greek?
    Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 06:56

Originally posted by RomiosArktos

bg_turk,if you have anything to say about Megali Idea say it!Don't change the subject!
But since you started first....

ok, here you go ...


The Ionians are an indigenous race,but the Dorians on the contrary have been constantly on the move;their home in Deucalion's reign was Phthiotis(in Sterea Hellas) and in the reign of Dorus son of Hellen the country known as Histiaeotis in the neighbourhood of Ossa and Olympus;driven from there by the Cadmeians they settled in Pindus and were known as Macednons(Macedon=( in Dorian Greek))+);thence they migrated to Dryopis,and finally to the Peloponnese,where they got their present name of Dorians.(Book One,Histories of Herodotus)

In tracing the emergence of the Macedonian kingdom from its origins as a Balkan backwater to a major European and Asian power, Eugene Borza offers to specialists and lay readers alike a revealing account of a relatively unexplored segment of ancient history. He draws from recent archaeological discoveries and an enhanced understanding of historical geography to form a narrative that provides a material-culture setting for political events. Examining the dynamics of Macedonian relations with the Greek city-states, he suggests that the Macedonians, although they gradually incorporated aspects of Greek culture into their own society, maintained a distinct ethnicity as a Balkan people.

Source:

Princeton University:
http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/titles/4547.html

More on the ethnicity of Macedonians:


Harvard University:
E. Badian, Department of History, Harvard University


The University of California:
http://www.ucpress.edu/books/sale/pages/5597.html

Some books:

Ancient Macedonians: Differences Between the Ancient Macedonians and the Ancient Greeks
by J S Gandeto



Macedonia and Greece: The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation
by John Shea

Macedonians and Epirotes were allowed to take part in the Olympic games,something allowed at that time only to those who had GREEK blood in their veins.

This is untrue.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4687276.stm

What happened when Alexander of Macedon applied to race in the Olympics?

B. Greek athletes protested, saying they would not run with a barbarian

Don't forget that Isokrates who was the preacher of the Pan-hellenic unity turned to Phillipos for the realisation of his dreams.
isokrates was the exact opposite to Dimosthenis.
Dimosthenis believed only in his city-state while Isokrates believed in something greater, A UNITED GREEK WORLD.

Please, note the difference between greek/hellenic and hellenisitic. There is no doubt that the Ancient Greeks had one of the most advanced cultures and civilizations in the middle east. Many people of different ethnicies such as the Romans, Thracians, etc. tried to immitate this culture, and they were all part of the hellenistic world. Alexander, and the Macedonians in general were also part of the Hellenistic world, but ethnically they were a distinct people. 

Alexandros is our greatest king of all times.He was the founder of the hellenistic and Byzantine world,the son of Zeus himself


Oh please! What did Alexander have to do with the Byzantine world? This is such a contradiction. Byzantium was the complete opposite of Ancient Greece in almost every aspect - christianity versus having many gods, progress in science and knowledge versus a christian dogma, etc ...

In any case if you want to adore a person who enslaved and invaded your ancestors, a person whom your ancestors hated and despised, and jealously guarded their hellenic heritage from, this is entirely your own choice. Only postmortum, when his achievment became clear, did the greeks accept him as their own.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 07:01
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 07:11
I wish i could read arguments.
This  isnt a forum where i get in to find sites with nationalistic propaganda.
and i dont have the time to waste for hanging around these sites.
If U have arguments write them HERE.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 07:16

Originally posted by Digenis

I wish i could read arguments.
This  isnt a forum where i get in to find sites with nationalistic propaganda.
and i dont have the time to waste for hanging around these sites.
If U have arguments write them HERE.

As a start you can take this BBC quiz with a special attention on Question #8:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4687276.stm



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 07:25
    I cannot understand it much...
The name of the king confuses me,
So can u explain me the names of all macedonian kings in "macedonian" language?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 07:32
What exactly do u want to prove ?:

1.Ancient macedonians werent greeks ?
2.Kings of macedonia werent greek ?
3.The descendants of ancient macedonia are the people of FYROM?

make your goals clear ...


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 07:57

Originally posted by Digenis

What exactly do u want to prove ?:

1.Ancient macedonians werent greeks ?

yes, ancien macedonians were not ethnically greek.Bu they adopted some greek customs, and they viewed greek culture as a superior one.


2.Kings of macedonia werent greek ?

As the macedonians themselves were not greek, naturally their kings werent either.

3.The descendants of ancient macedonia are the people of FYROM?

The decendants of the Macedonians are both the people of the Macedonian province in greece and the Republic of Macedonia.

It is well known that slavs arrived in the region much later, and linguistically or culturally they have hardly any association with the ancient macedonians, as do many of the greeks in the rest of Macedonia, many of whom are not indgenous to macedonia but anatolian settlers from the greco-turkish war. They have no macedonian roots.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 08:12
1.Why did they speak an ancient Greek dialect?
Why did they worshiped Greek gods?
Why Olympus is half in Macedonia?
Why did they participate in the Olypic games ?(name "barbarians" who did this)
Why their towns had Greek names?


2.Why ALL the kings of Macedonia had GREEK names ? (even before they came with contact with the Southern-since the founding of the kingdom)
Perdikas,Archelaos,Argaios,Aeropos,Alexandros,Phillipos,etc etc etc

3.What happened really to the ancient macedonians after the roman conquest ?
do u know? read and tell me ...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 08:46
No he was Macedonian. his mother was from epirus.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 08:48
But I rather to say nationality comes from father side. this is my opinion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 08:48

Originally posted by Digenis

1.Why did they speak an ancient Greek dialect?

There is no evidence they spoke an ancient greek dialect. This is still very much under dispute. What is undisputable is that they used the greek script, as did the Thracians, because that was the only script of the time.


Why did they worshiped Greek gods?

They may have worshipped greek gods, Thracians too worshipped some greek gods like for instance Ares/Mars, the god of war.


Why did they participate in the Olypic games ?(name "barbarians" who did this)

They did not participate in the Olympic games. Greek participants refused to compete with barbarians.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 09:05
So Alexander I,and other Macedonians DIDNT participate ????? 
READ HERODOTUS. Such  ignorance....

Tell me if any phrase is saved in macedonian ? something written ?
In Thrace excavations revealed inscriptions in Greek Writing but uknown language (as the latin alphabet is used by many languages).

All inscription of Macedons are in Greek.





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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 10:00
bg_turk wrote
"yes, ancien macedonians were not ethnically greek.Bu they adopted some greek customs, and they viewed greek culture as a superior one."
what is ethnic greek BG? are you talking about race or culture?


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 13:09

Evidence of the Ancient Macedonian Language

1-Macedonian Language

The Pella katadesmos is a katadesmos (a curse, or magic spell) inscribed on a lead scroll, probably dating to between 380 and 350 BC. It was found in Pella (at the time capital of Macedon) in 1986; it was published in the Hellenic Dialectology Journal in 1993.

The tab has been dated by the original publishers to the "Mid-4th century BC or slightly earlier (letter forms, spelling)". This dating has been contested by Prof. Edmonds of Bryn Mawr College, who proposes a 3rd century BC date.

The former opinion is concurred by the Oxford Classical Dictionary, in which Professor Olivier Masson writes: "Yet in contrast with earlier views which made of it {i.e. Macedonian} an Aeolic dialect (O.Hoffmann compared Thessalian) we must by now think of a link with North-West Greek (Locrian, Aetolian, Phocidian, Epirote). This view is supported by the recent discovery at Pella of a curse tablet (4th cent. BC) which may well be the first 'Macedonian' text attested (provisional publication by E.Voutyras; cf. the Bulletin Epigraphique in Rev. Et. Grec. 1994, no.413); the text includes an adverb "opoka" which is not Thessalian." (OCD, 1996, pp 905, 906).

Of the same opinion is James L. O'Neil's (of the University of Sydney) presentation at the 2005 Conference of the Australasian Society for Classical Studies, entitled "Doric Forms in Macedonian Inscriptions" (abstract):
"A fourthcentury BC curse tablet from Pella shows word forms which are clearly Doric, but a different form of Doric from any of the west Greek dialects of areas adjoining Macedon. Three other, very brief, fourth century inscriptions are also indubitably Doric. These show that a Doric dialect was spoken in Macedon, as we would expect from the West Greek forms of Greek names found in Macedon. And yet later Macedonian inscriptions are in Koine avoiding both Doric forms and the Macedonian voicing of consonants. The native Macedonian dialect had become unsuitable for written documents."

more in

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61

2-

Ancient Macedonian language (provisional ISO-DIS 639-3.5 XMK).
Subgrouping Code : Ancient Greek language or IEGreekB
Group code: Greek Language or IEGreek.


more in Linguistics.org (http://cf.linguistlist.org/cfdocs/new-website/LL-WorkingDir s/forms/langs/LLDescription.cfm?code=xmk)


2-Borza before 1990s

Our understanding of the Macedonians' emergence into history is confounded by two events: the establishment of the Macedonians as an identifiable ethnic group, and the foundation of their ruling house. The "highlanders" or "Makedones" of the mountainous regions of western Macedonia are derived from northwest Greek stock; they were akin both to those who at an earlier time may have migrated south to become the historical "Dorians", and to other Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Epirotes or Molossians. That is, we may suggest that northwest Greece provided a pool of Indo- European speakers of proto-Greek from which were drawn the tribes who later were known by different names as they established their regional identities in separate parts of the country [ Hesperia Supplements, Vol. 19, Studies in Attic Epigraphy, History and Topography. Presented to Eugene Vanderpool. (1982), pp. 7-13.]

3-Herodotus and your question

I myself happen to know that they are Greeks, and I shall demonstrate it' wrote Herodotus (5.22).

Did you not take the elementary precaution of checking up on so recent an event as the Olympic Games, for which records of winners were kept? Same mistake as Borza  e.t.c. done

What really matters is that Herodotus, Thucydides and Isocrates - spanning more than a century-wrote of the Macedonian royal house not as 'Argeadae' (as Borza, Baddian do) but as'Temenidae', and that the Macedonian kings worshipped at Aegeae and at PellaHeracles Patrous as their ancestor through Temenus.

4-ETHNICAL IDENTITY

In order to define a Macedonian at the past  must consider some if such as :

IF THE SIMPLISTIC AND UNPRESUASIVE RATIONALE OF HABITATION in Macedonia  Kingdom defines who is a Macedonian, then the citizen or ihnabitants must called Macedonian,. Within this framework, we can divide historic Macednia's inhabitants into three groups: Greek-Macedonians, Illyrian-Macedonians, and Paeonian-Macedonians.

IF HABITATION is the criterion of Macedonianism,  Macedonians would also includeThrakians,Paeonians, Illyrians and Greeks of nondescript ethnicity. The Greek-Macedonian group would include the indigenous Hellenic Macedonians (Dorian) and Greek people who colonized the  Macedonia  coasts from  during the 8th and 5th century.

THEREFORE,
you can consider the Macedonian ethnicity with the way that you want. Actually the etymology of the Macedonia  word is a Greek as also and the expanded culture from Alexander

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 15:16
Originally posted by akritas


2-Borza before 1990s

Our understanding of the Macedonians' emergence into history is confounded by two events: the establishment of the Macedonians as an identifiable ethnic group, and the foundation of their ruling house. The "highlanders" or "Makedones" of the mountainous regions of western Macedonia are derived from northwest Greek stock; they were akin both to those who at an earlier time may have migrated south to become the historical "Dorians", and to other Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Epirotes or Molossians. That is, we may suggest that northwest Greece provided a pool of Indo- European speakers of proto-Greek from which were drawn the tribes who later were known by different names as they established their regional identities in separate parts of the country [ Hesperia Supplements, Vol. 19, Studies in Attic Epigraphy, History and Topography. Presented to Eugene Vanderpool. (1982), pp. 7-13.]

Yes, you are right these were the views of Borza before 1990, but now he has changed them, and according to the material I have posted above his views are that while Macedonians were influenced by hellenic culture, they were an ethnically distinct group from the Greeks.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 16:06

So am I to understand that ancient Macedonian culture was so "weak" that was completely overcome by the Greek one? Apparently, according to bg turk's logic, the Macedonians after they conquered the Southern Greeks (actually they only fought Athenians and Thebans with the help of other Greeks - not any other Greek cities) and the Persian empire all the way to India, they failed to leave any "Macedonian" culture behind and all that was spread to the conquered lands was the Greek (conquered) one.

Sorry but it doesn't make sense. Even if one was ever to accept that reasoning, s/he would also had to accept that the Macedonians "became" Greek, which is an even greater achievement of the Greeks and a testament to their superiority 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 16:19
Why do all maps of Greek polises stop at the border of Macedonia? I find it hard to believe that a mistake of that magnitude could go on for such a long time unnoticed.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 16:26
Because  Macedonia and Epirus were until 5th century in a primitive form of state ,more resembling to Homeric states.
They had a king and didnt develop in city-states.
This is the main reason they remained in the external sphere of Greek World until the rise of Macedonian power.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 18:01

Fact is that Alexander was half Macedonian half Molossian.

His mother Olympias, was daughter of Neoptolemus, king of Epirus. The members of the Molossian royal house were called Aeacidae and claimed descent from Achilles. They considered themselves Greeks and were seen as Greeks by others. Due to this mother's ancestry, Alexander faced accusations of non-macedonian purity from his enemies as the biggest deterring for not getting Macedonian Throne.

His father's Philip lineage was called Argeadae or Temenidae and claimed descent from Hercules. On the pretty convincing weight of evidence both Molossian and Macedonian royal houses were viewed as Greeks and claimed themselves to be so.

There you go! Now you have the answer to your question.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 18:35
Originally posted by bg_turk

...for instance Ares/Mars, the god of war.

Mars was a Roman god, not Greek.
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