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200th Anniversary of the End of the Holy Roman Empire

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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 200th Anniversary of the End of the Holy Roman Empire
    Posted: 06-Mar-2006 at 16:29
As you probably all know, this year is the 200th anniversary of the end of the Holy Roman Empire as in August 1806 the last HRE Francis II abdicated, having been politely asked by Napoleon to do so.

I think celebrations are on order, but Im not sure what nature they should be.
Should we all rejoice in the demise of a highly superfluous, inefficient and historically disastrous political entity that never properly functioned, or should we mourn the end of a quasi federal system that allowed the political, religious and cultural independence of its member states, and prevented the premature rise of Germany to a strong centralized power in Europe, a feat that in view of later happenings should not be underestimated?
Was there ever anything positive about the HRE, for Germany or Europe, something that might even have been worth preserving in 1806, or was it a complete failure and an anachronism whose end came far too late when it finally came?
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2006 at 17:04

In 1806 the HRE had no rationale, but up to the Reformation it seemed to function reasonably well in terms of acknowledged Imperial authority and functioning law courts.  Its "constitution" of the rights and priveleges of the Estates and towns of the Empire was basically respected.  The Reformation damaged that, but the structure remained. 

British historian Professor Peter Wilson maintains that even after the TYW the Reich acted as a functioning collective security instrument against advances by the Turks (1664 and 1683), and against Bourbon France after the 1670s.  This function lasted well into the XVIII c., and even Bavaria's French alliance did not cause it to break up.

The Empire was actually pretty resilient.

Personally, I think the end of the HRE was the rise of an armed Prussia when it had a king who was willing to attack and damage Imperial integrity for his own gain.  Frederick II was.  His father and most of the Brandenburg-Prussian princes had been basically Emperors' men, even if they were Catholic Habsburgs.

 

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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2006 at 17:26

Every teacher/professor I have had who has spoken of the Holy Roman Empire always adds with a chuckle "of course the Holy Roman Empire was neither 'holy' nor 'Roman'." Generally, I believe they are correct--except for brief instances, religion was not a priority (notably during the reign of Charles V); the only time it could be associated with Roman greatness was during the 9th-13th centuries when it was the Empire of the West.

Still, I feel guilty about celebrating. Maybe this is just a result of my view of how peoples should be governed (who was it...Dante perhaps...that wrote that book regarding the ideal "World Monarch"? Ah well, if there's a party be sure to remind me .

-Akolouthos



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  Quote Cunctator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2006 at 17:37
I hate to see the end of any ancient institution: that's why I would have opposed the French Revolution and Bonaparte. (I would also likely have opposed the American Revolution, even though today I am a big fan of the US republic and system. Being inconsistent is also the trademark of a conservative!!!) The ending of the HRE really was the capstone on the old idea of monarchy. And, although Austria dawdled on for another 110 years, time had passed it by. The events of 1806 led directly to those of 1914 and, later, 1918 -- and those years are an enormous tragedy for Europe and European civilisation.
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  Quote Cunctator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2006 at 17:42
By the way, just to be pedantic: it would not have been HRE Francis II, but rather, I think, HIM Francis II. For shame Komnenos!
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2006 at 17:52
Originally posted by Cunctator

By the way, just to be pedantic: it would not have been HRE Francis II, but rather, I think,HIM Francis II. For shame Komnenos!



Don't get it !!!

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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2006 at 17:57

Originally posted by Cunctator

I hate to see the end of any ancient institution: that's why I would have opposed the French Revolution and Bonaparte. (I would also likely have opposed the American Revolution, even though today I am a big fan of the US republic and system. Being inconsistent is also the trademark of a conservative!!!) The ending of the HRE really was the capstone on the old idea of monarchy. And, although Austria dawdled on for another 110 years, time had passed it by. The events of 1806 led directly to those of 1914 and, later, 1918 -- and those years are an enormous tragedy for Europe and European civilisation.

Ancient institutions are precious.  Back to my point above concerning resiliency, the Habsburg Empire after the HRE was resilient as well.  Austrian Empire til 1867; Austria-Hungary til 1918.  They survived for around 500 years.  These people had the greatest sense of historical mission and legitimacy of any in the so called "West."  They also had a sense of history that no one has in the 21st century.

Were they culpable in 1914, sure.  Did the empire go away in 1918, yes.  But it had lasted far, far longer than revolutionary Russia did.

A.E.I.O.U.

   

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 01:44
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Originally posted by Cunctator

I hate to see the end of any ancient institution: that's why I would have opposed the French Revolution and Bonaparte. (I would also likely have opposed the American Revolution, even though today I am a big fan of the US republic and system. Being inconsistent is also the trademark of a conservative!!!) (...)

Ancient institutions are precious. 

(...)


What's this: the Tory International or a congress of antiquarians?

Enthropy must do its job and save all us from corruptio and stagnation. Long live to change!

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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 08:46
Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by pikeshot1600

[QUOTE=Cunctator]I hate to see the end of any ancient institution: that's why I would have opposed the French Revolution and Bonaparte. (I would also likely have opposed the American Revolution, even though today I am a big fan of the US republic and system. Being inconsistent is also the trademark of a conservative!!!) (...)

Ancient institutions are precious. 

(...)
[/QUOTE

What's this: the Tory International or a congress of antiquarians?

Enthropy must do its job and save all us from corruptio and stagnation. Long live to change!

Spoken like a radical!

But you are the one into Etruscans. 

 

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 12:40

Oh my god. Don't try to seek out each others mistakes.

I, as a conservatist, do not like any old faction or nation or state being destroyed and as the Heiligen Rmisher Reich worked as it did, there was no need for it to break up.

By the way, just to be pedantic: it would not have been HRE Francis II, but rather, I think, HIM Francis II. For shame Komnenos!

 

Maybe: Holy/Heiligen Imperium _____. It seems to be a trick of translation.

 

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 15:41

HIM = His Imperial Majesty = title for Franz II

I suppose Cunctator mistook your HRE as His Royal Emperor (?) or so = title, not as short form of Holy Roman Empire as you intended.

as for the HRE:

Voltaire said "the HRE is neither Holy nor Roman and it's definately not an Empire". he said that in the middle 18th century, at this date his statement was completely true. but in fact up to the mid-13th century it really was all that.

i'm only a fan of the HRE up to the death of Frederick II, after him everything went down the drown. but unlike Komenos, who prefers being ruled by conservative militant morons from Berlin, i would have prefered my country to stay independent and remain small but getting rich the big time like Switzerland, Liechtenstein or Luxemburg.

I think Napoleon did good, but Bismarck spoiled everyhting he achieved. after independent states, a  (Rhine) Confederation would have been my wettest dream, instead we got a conservative pseudo-federal  parliamentary monarchy under Prussian domination, that was really a butt-rape after all the positive developments that happened during the previous revolutionary periods.

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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 16:56
Originally posted by Temujin

i'm only a fan of the HRE up to the death of Frederick II, after him everything went down the drown. but unlike Komenos, who prefers being ruled by conservative militant morons from Berlin, i would have prefered my country to stay independent and remain small but getting rich the big time like Switzerland, Liechtenstein or Luxemburg.



I don't want to bring this ancient discussion up again, just want to point that that I never said that I prefered Germany's unification under Prussian dominance.
Although the town in Westphalia I come from had been Prussian since 1609, for purely romantic and sentimental reasons I wish the Count of Hohenlimburg could have preserved the independency of all of his ten acres till 1806 or even later.
But its not a question of personal choices.
I stated that I regard the fact that Germany became a nation state in 1871, with some preliminaries before that, an historically inevitable development as direct result of Germany's industrialisation and its entry into the global capitalist market.

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  Quote Cunctator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 22:25

Sorry Maju, but I'm an old-fashioned Tory who see traditions having contemporary relevance and an antiquarian who looks with longing at the past!!!

Anyhow, as I was reading this discussion it occurred to me that perhaps the HRE is still a relevant institution to study today. Perhaps the EU is moving in a direction that will result in something that might eventually resemble the HRE -- a loose confederation of independent entities that preserve their peculiarities while acknowledging in a very general way a central authority. That is, of course, if the bureaucrats in Brussels are thwarted in their efforts to regulate everything. I don't want to push the analogy too far, but it is interesting nonetheless.

Komnenos -- HIM His Imperial Majesty (Temujin got it right).

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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 23:33

Originally posted by Temujin

Voltaire said "the HRE is neither Holy nor Roman and it's definately not an Empire". he said that in the middle 18th century, at this date his statement was completely true. but in fact up to the mid-13th century it really was all that.

Thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for the source. I have heard that quote millions of times, however I don't believe anyone has ever put a name to it. Thanks again.

-Akolouthos

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 06:56
Originally posted by Temujin

HIM = His Imperial Majesty = title for Franz II

I suppose Cunctator mistook your HRE as His Royal Emperor (?) or so = title, not as short form of Holy Roman Empire as you intended.



I think he meant HRE: Holy Roman Emperor, just that.

His Imperial Majesty implies recognition of his attributions, what probably most of us don't mean to express.

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 13:03
Nope, still HRE is the common short form of Holy Roman Empire. I would use HRR referring to German language but that is the choice of writers themselves.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 14:31

Originally posted by Komnenos

I stated that I regard the fact that Germany became a nation state in 1871, with some preliminaries before that, an historically inevitable development as direct result of Germany's industrialisation and its entry into the global capitalist market.

no. first, germany at that time was only regionally industrialized while mostly eastern regions were not, industrialization therefore was NO unifying factor. German "unification" was the result of Prussias agressive foreign policy and "counter revolution (1848 revolution)"-attitude. people often completely ignore the role of '48 in regard of subsequent events or the importance of the '48 revolution at all.

and Luxemburg, Liechtenstein, Switzerland and Austria proove your "historical inevitable development" wrong.

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 17:41
Originally posted by Temujin

no. first, germany at that time was only regionally industrialized while mostly eastern regions were not, industrialization therefore was NO unifying factor. German "unification" was the result of Prussias agressive foreign policy and "counter revolution (1848 revolution)"-attitude. people often completely ignore the role of '48 in regard of subsequent events or the importance of the '48 revolution at all.

Well, we Prussian Poles (or rather Polish Prussians) were against unification and Bismarck has never forget it nor forgave us. On the opposite side we supported 1848 revolution in Germany. But my own familly kinda participated in unification of Germany, even if against our will. My ancestors were at Sedan in 1871 and were Prussian soldiers.



Edited by Mosquito
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 19:03
Originally posted by rider

Nope, still HRE is the common short form of Holy Roman Empire. I would use HRR referring to German language but that is the choice of writers themselves.


You should use Latin: remember that it was the Holy ROMAN Empire. Therefore Sacrum Romanum Imperium Nationes Germanicae -> SRING - or maybe just SRI (originally).


Edited by Maju

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 12:35

Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by rider

Nope, still HRE is the common short form of Holy Roman Empire. I would use HRR referring to German language but that is the choice of writers themselves.


You should use Latin: remember that it was the Holy ROMAN Empire. Therefore Sacrum Romanum Imperium Nationes Germanicae -> SRING - or maybe just SRI (originally).

German would be more truthful after 16th century.

Now, to others:

The Prussian railways played an important role for because of them, the Prussians couldn't have mobilized so quickly their forces.

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