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The Jewish people

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Halevi View Drop Down
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  Quote Halevi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Jewish people
    Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 07:29

Hi all,

As a non-zionist, agnositc-atheist freethinking ethnic jew (enough loaded terms for you?) , i'd love to hear people's opinions on jews and judaism in general (or in specific!) Please feel free to be open and honest. =)
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 08:08
On Jews or on Israel? I have nothing against Jews, the same I have nothing against, let's say Yakutians or Bakongo... but Israel gets to my nerves. It's the last colony and is only creating trouble and solving nothing. couldn't you make a unified state with Palestinians, something like Lebanon. That could be a great influence in the Near East.

Overall, I tend to see Judaism as the precursor of Islam, Moses as the precursor of Mohammed. This is not because I am Muslim (I am not) but because I see the same nature for both religions: a sickness of the desert it must be.

What worries me actually is Christianity. It's a foreign (Hebrew) religion that has nothing to give us Europeans. We need to get rid of that: it just confuse our identity.

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  Quote Theophos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 09:21
Originally posted by Maju

What worries me actually is Christianity. It's a foreign (Hebrew) religion that has nothing to give us Europeans. We need to get rid of that: it just confuse our identity.
 
 I guess you have a confused identity then.
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  Quote Theophos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 09:34
As for jews, I think they're ok as anyone else. I'm not prone to generalize people and I try not to. Of course, there are those popular stereotypical jewish traits such as the jew is scrooge, the jew is not truthsworthy, the jew lends money, etc, but any honest person knows that they're just that, stereotyping. I'm really sorry for the anti-semitism that for centuries was more or less spread out throughout Europe, with an passive/active contribution of the Church on that. Fortunately, things have changed in that level, but there are still some reminiscenses in some right wing fascist movements in modern Europe.
 
As for Israel, I think it was big historical error and it has caused more damage to the world and the region than good. A unified state with palestinians seems to me to be the more logical and sane solution to the ongoing crisis and war, like Maju pointed out.


Edited by Theophos
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 09:49
Jews collectivly, no opinion, i've met to many for that one to work. Judism, a little wacky, but no more so than your average religion.
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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 10:27
For me, if I'm perfectly honest, the feelings are mixed.

When it comes to Zionists, right-wing Israeli political parties, terrorist groups like Kach... I'm irritated with them more than I should be for two main reasons: 1. Most of western world doesn't even know that they exist(ed) and certainly not what they've done. 2. As a Muslim, I consider them specifically against me. I see the settlers on the news screaming at Israeli police in their Arab costumes and I just feel sick to my stomach. I whisper things in my mind I'd never repeat in public, anti-Semitic things. It's just something that really, really gets to me.

When it comes to everyday Jews, I'm more than fine with it. I tend to find myself drawn to Jews, even. I just find that we're speaking from the same place, if that makes sense? I almost never have to explain things when I chat with a Jew... I really can't explain it. It's kind of like Slav Macedonians. There is just this instant...thing. And I'm not the only one who experiences it, I'm certain. I've never met a Bosniak nor a Slav Macedonian who didn't kind of remark a similar thing about the other. (I wish Dejan was here,
then I wouldn't sound as crazy...LOL).

Overall, and speaking from a generalized sense, my impression of Jews and Judaism is probably better than it should be. La Benevolencija will always be the face of Judaism in my eyes and I'll never forget the things they, and Israel itself, did for Bosniaks during the war - and La Benevolencija continues to do. I just feel such a tug in my heart. They've really earned my respect. The little corner of the cemetery where the Jews who were killed 1992-1995 in Sarajevo has a white stone with one word engraved in it, "Again". I think it's the best memorial in the city and I kind of sniffle every time I think about it.

So yeah...that's it.

Edited by Mila
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 10:59
Originally posted by Cywr

Jews collectivly, no opinion, i've met to many for that one to work. Judism, a little wacky, but no more so than your average religion.

second

I do have a question for Halevi though: both other Abrahamic religions (Christianity and Islam) seem to have an urge to spread their religion and to convert people, and have become very large because of that. Judaism however doesn't seem to have an urge to convert people at all. Why is that?
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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:01
Mixcoatl, Mixcoatl...look around at who they have to
choose from.
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:16

Originally posted by Halevi


Hi all,

As a non-zionist, agnositc-atheist freethinking ethnic jew (enough loaded terms for you?) , i'd love to hear people's opinions on jews and judaism in general (or in specific!) Please feel free to be open and honest. =)

Just a little anomaly in your self description. Jew is not an ethnicity, it's a religion. In fact it's a multi-ethnic faith, black and Chinese Jews included.

So if you are an athiest, as you descrbe yourself, you are definately not a Jew.



Edited by Paul
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:20
So if you are an athiest, you are definately not a Jew.

In Dutch there is a difference between Jood (Jew) and jood (jew), the first one meaning somebody with a Jewish ethnicity, the second one meaning somebody who believes in the jewish religion (In Dutch ethnicities are capitalized and religions are not, so Halevi is a Jew but not a jew). Perhaps it's a good idea to use the Jew/jew difference here as well, to avoid confusion.
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  Quote Artaxiad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:20
It is interesting that Jews have kept their identity outside their homeland for such a long time, especially when they were one of the (or the) most hated religious group in Europe. 
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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:27
Originally posted by Mixcoatl

So if you are an athiest,
you are definately not a Jew.

In Dutch there is a difference between Jood (Jew)
and jood (jew), the
first one meaning somebody with a Jewish ethnicity,
the second one
meaning somebody who believes in the jewish
religion (In Dutch
ethnicities are capitalized and religions are not, so
Halevi is a Jew
but not a jew). Perhaps it's a good idea to use the
Jew/jew difference
here as well, to avoid confusion.



That's really interesting!

Here they're called Spanish (Sefards) or German
(Ashkenazi) racially, and Jewish religiously.
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:47
Yeah, people often kept their Jewish culture even if they didn't have the full English Breakfast when it came to the faith aspect, that alone covers the ethnicity bit, the not being fully accepted bit just sealed the deal as they remained distinct communities.
I'd say that as well as a religion, Jews are a meta-ethnicity, with the two overlapping to varying degrees.
Though present English language discourse prefers to keep things simple, so we either pretend Jews are a race when they are not, or act smug in pointing out that Jews can't be ethnicity because they are in fact several ethnicities with a common thread. Meta-ethnicity solves this problem, maybe one day i'll be famous for inventing this phrase.


Edited by Cywr
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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 14:55
I see Jews as some pretty close people to Estonians, not ethnically, or that Israelis are my second bretherin to the Finns. 200 Jews fought for a democratic Estonia in 1919. so i have no hard feelings towards them, quite the opposite.
And during 1918-1939. the jews were a great part of our society, many owning a higher education and having alot to do with advancing our culture.

But Israel today is another topic: forcing a country into existance in this way really isn't my cup of coffee. And yeah, form a united "Israelania" or something of the sort, would really show that deeply religious people can be something else then blood thirsty ultra-nationalists.
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 15:10
From a historical point of view, the Jewish people, regardless if they defined by ethnicity or religion, are surely one of the most fascinating groups in European and World history.
Fascinating not only for their contributions, either independently or via their influence on Christianity to European culture, but also for their extraordinary survival as a community against all odds in a totally hostile environment.
In many ways, the Jewish minority has been the yard-stick on which the capabilities of a society to tolerance and enlightenment ( in want of a better word) can be measured.

Judaism, as Christianity and Islam, has been a important and necessary step in the development of human belief systems and thought, and is therefore neither good nor evil.

As for the State of Israel, as many problems as I have with its opressive policies, I detect here more potential in wanting and being able to achieve a peaceful solution for Palestine than amongst its many enemies, above all the fascistoid Iranian regime. In fear of what might come in its stead were it destroyed, it's existence must be guaranteed and be politically defended.



Edited by Komnenos
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 16:16

persecuted, survivors plotters, energetic, industrious, very intelligent, antagonists, can not discuss history without mentioning jews, diverse people, secretive, rich.

They have the collective knowledge and accumulated wisdom, unparralled by any other people. As old as moses.

I didnt read any other posts and jotted down whatever came to my head, so it is pretty honest list.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

When i was young I went to watch cricket at Lord cricket ground and was for some stupid reason baffled as to y a jewish guy was watching cricket.(ie, what did cricket have to do with him, it semed something very remote).

Somethings that amaze me about jewish practices is the covering of hair by a woman using a wig. Another one is usury which i think is forbidden.

I am deeply interested in the Donmeh and their life in Turkey. Also the jewish claims of lost jews in Afghanistan.

 

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 17:36
When i was young I went to watch cricket at Lord cricket ground and was for some stupid reason baffled as to y a jewish guy was watching cricket.(ie, what did cricket have to do with him, it semed something very remote).


Sadly, its contagious, even the Dutch have taken it up.
Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 18:50
     I don't look at ethnic Jews differently than any other group. Doesn't bother me when one believes in Judaism, either. I don't like the institutionalized system of belief, but if someone believes in it I'm fine with it as long as theyre not trying to convert me or openly judging me based on their values. This applies to people of all religions, not just Jews.

     To be honest, though, even though I don't like or dislike Jews more than another group, I have to say I use the term "Jew" around friends. When someone is being cheap, sneaky, etc. But I even do this with Armenians...when I hear of people busted for any type of fraud I'll say something like "What an Armenian move". So its not exclusive to Jews or anything, I like ethnic jokes as a way of laughing about our differences (however exaggerated they might be) instead of fighting about them.

     I think Jewish history and Armenian history have many similarities. Mainly the non-stop persecutions (Jews had it worse in my opinion-but not in the present day), and also the large diaspora and being able to keep their cultures alive even though they were far from their homeland.

     I don't have a problem with the existence of Israel, I just don't agree with their state policies and as a result Israel (as an institution) tends to irritate me.

Originally posted by Halevi

As a non-zionist, agnositc-atheist freethinking ethnic jew


     By agnostic-atheist, I assume you mean that you switch between the two on occasion. I'm agnostic, myself (with slight instances where I had accepted atheism).


Edited by ArmenianSurvival
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 23:56

Originally posted by Mixcoatl

So if you are an athiest, you are definately not a Jew.

In Dutch there is a difference between Jood (Jew) and jood (jew), the first one meaning somebody with a Jewish ethnicity, the second one meaning somebody who believes in the jewish religion (In Dutch ethnicities are capitalized and religions are not, so Halevi is a Jew but not a jew). Perhaps it's a good idea to use the Jew/jew difference here as well, to avoid confusion.

But both 'jood' and 'Jood' are not an ethnicities. One is a faith and the other a myth sprung from a faith. The ethnic term in this sense is a religious one too. So called 'Jood' are as ethnically diverse as the people of Europe and the Middle East.



Edited by Paul
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 01:08
Originally posted by Theophos

Originally posted by Maju

What worries me actually is Christianity. It's a foreign (Hebrew) religion that has nothing to give us Europeans. We need to get rid of that: it just confuse our identity.
 
 I guess you have a confused identity then.


No. I have not: Christianity is an Oriental religion.

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