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Halevi
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Joined: 16-Feb-2006
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Topic: The Jewish people Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 07:29 |
Hi all,
As a non-zionist, agnositc-atheist freethinking ethnic jew (enough
loaded terms for you?) , i'd love to hear people's opinions on jews and
judaism in general (or in specific!) Please feel free to be open and
honest. =)
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Maju
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Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 08:08 |
On Jews or on Israel? I have nothing against Jews, the same I have nothing against, let's say Yakutians or Bakongo... but Israel gets to my nerves. It's the last colony and is only creating trouble and solving nothing. couldn't you make a unified state with Palestinians, something like Lebanon. That could be a great influence in the Near East.
Overall, I tend to see Judaism as the precursor of Islam, Moses as the precursor of Mohammed. This is not because I am Muslim (I am not) but because I see the same nature for both religions: a sickness of the desert it must be.
What worries me actually is Christianity. It's a foreign (Hebrew) religion that has nothing to give us Europeans. We need to get rid of that: it just confuse our identity.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Theophos
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Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 09:21 |
Originally posted by Maju
What worries me actually is Christianity. It's a foreign (Hebrew) religion that has nothing to give us Europeans. We need to get rid of that: it just confuse our identity. |
I guess you have a confused identity then.
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"I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me."
--John 14:6
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Theophos
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Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 09:34 |
As for jews, I think they're ok as anyone else. I'm not prone to generalize people and I try not to. Of course, there are those popular stereotypical jewish traits such as the jew is scrooge, the jew is not truthsworthy, the jew lends money, etc, but any honest person knows that they're just that, stereotyping. I'm really sorry for the anti-semitism that for centuries was more or less spread out throughout Europe, with an passive/active contribution of the Church on that. Fortunately, things have changed in that level, but there are still some reminiscenses in some right wing fascist movements in modern Europe.
As for Israel, I think it was big historical error and it has caused more damage to the world and the region than good. A unified state with palestinians seems to me to be the more logical and sane solution to the ongoing crisis and war, like Maju pointed out.
Edited by Theophos
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"I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me."
--John 14:6
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Cywr
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Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 09:49 |
Jews collectivly, no opinion, i've met to many for that one to work.
Judism, a little wacky, but no more so than your average religion.
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Arrrgh!!"
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Mila
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Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 10:27 |
For me, if I'm perfectly honest, the feelings are
mixed.
When it comes to Zionists, right-wing Israeli political
parties, terrorist groups like Kach... I'm irritated with
them more than I should be for two main reasons: 1.
Most of western world doesn't even know that they
exist(ed) and certainly not what they've done. 2. As a
Muslim, I consider them specifically against me. I
see the settlers on the news screaming at Israeli
police in their Arab costumes and I just feel sick to
my stomach. I whisper things in my mind I'd never
repeat in public, anti-Semitic things. It's just
something that really, really gets to me.
When it comes to everyday Jews, I'm more than fine
with it. I tend to find myself drawn to Jews, even. I just
find that we're speaking from the same place, if that
makes sense? I almost never have to explain things
when I chat with a Jew... I really can't explain it. It's
kind of like Slav Macedonians. There is just this
instant...thing. And I'm not the only one who
experiences it, I'm certain. I've never met a Bosniak
nor a Slav Macedonian who didn't kind of remark a
similar thing about the other. (I wish Dejan was here,
then I wouldn't sound as crazy...LOL).
Overall, and speaking from a generalized sense, my
impression of Jews and Judaism is probably better
than it should be. La Benevolencija will always be
the face of Judaism in my eyes and I'll never forget
the things they, and Israel itself, did for Bosniaks
during the war - and La Benevolencija continues to
do. I just feel such a tug in my heart. They've really
earned my respect. The little corner of the cemetery
where the Jews who were killed 1992-1995 in
Sarajevo has a white stone with one word engraved
in it, "Again". I think it's the best memorial in the city
and I kind of sniffle every time I think about it.
So yeah...that's it.
Edited by Mila
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Guests
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Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 10:59 |
Originally posted by Cywr
Jews collectivly, no opinion, i've met to many for that one to work.
Judism, a little wacky, but no more so than your average religion.
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second
I do have a question for Halevi though: both other Abrahamic religions
(Christianity and Islam) seem to have an urge to spread their religion
and to convert people, and have become very large because of that.
Judaism however doesn't seem to have an urge to convert people at all.
Why is that?
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Mila
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Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:01 |
Mixcoatl, Mixcoatl...look around at who they have to
choose from.
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Paul
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Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:16 |
Originally posted by Halevi
Hi all,
As a non-zionist, agnositc-atheist freethinking ethnic jew (enough loaded terms for you?) , i'd love to hear people's opinions on jews and judaism in general (or in specific!) Please feel free to be open and honest. =)
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Just a little anomaly in your self description. Jew is not an ethnicity, it's a religion. In fact it's a multi-ethnic faith, black and Chinese Jews included.
So if you are an athiest, as you descrbe yourself, you are definately not a Jew.
Edited by Paul
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Guests
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Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:20 |
So if you are an athiest, you are definately not a Jew. |
In Dutch there is a difference between Jood (Jew) and jood (jew), the
first one meaning somebody with a Jewish ethnicity, the second one
meaning somebody who believes in the jewish religion (In Dutch
ethnicities are capitalized and religions are not, so Halevi is a Jew
but not a jew). Perhaps it's a good idea to use the Jew/jew difference
here as well, to avoid confusion.
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Artaxiad
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Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:20 |
It is interesting that Jews have kept their identity outside their homeland for such a long time, especially when they were one of the (or the) most hated religious group in Europe.
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Mila
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Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:27 |
Originally posted by Mixcoatl
So if you are an athiest,
you are definately not a Jew. |
In Dutch there is a difference between Jood (Jew)
and jood (jew), the
first one meaning somebody with a Jewish ethnicity,
the second one
meaning somebody who believes in the jewish
religion (In Dutch
ethnicities are capitalized and religions are not, so
Halevi is a Jew
but not a jew). Perhaps it's a good idea to use the
Jew/jew difference
here as well, to avoid confusion.
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That's really interesting!
Here they're called Spanish (Sefards) or German
(Ashkenazi) racially, and Jewish religiously.
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Cywr
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Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:47 |
Yeah, people often kept their Jewish culture even if they didn't have
the full English Breakfast when it came to the faith aspect, that alone
covers the ethnicity bit, the not being fully accepted bit just sealed
the deal as they remained distinct communities.
I'd say that as well as a religion, Jews are a meta-ethnicity, with the two overlapping to varying degrees.
Though present English language discourse prefers to keep things
simple, so we either pretend Jews are a race when they are not, or act
smug in pointing out that Jews can't be ethnicity because they are in
fact several ethnicities with a common thread. Meta-ethnicity solves
this problem, maybe one day i'll be famous for inventing this phrase.
Edited by Cywr
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Arrrgh!!"
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Kalevipoeg
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Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 14:55 |
I see Jews as some pretty close people to Estonians, not ethnically, or
that Israelis are my second bretherin to the Finns. 200 Jews fought for
a democratic Estonia in 1919. so i have no hard feelings towards them,
quite the opposite.
And during 1918-1939. the jews were a great part of our society, many
owning a higher education and having alot to do with advancing our
culture.
But Israel today is another topic: forcing a country into existance in
this way really isn't my cup of coffee. And yeah, form a united
"Israelania" or something of the sort, would really show that deeply
religious people can be something else then blood thirsty
ultra-nationalists.
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There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
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Komnenos
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Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 15:10 |
From a historical point of view, the Jewish people, regardless if they defined by ethnicity or religion, are surely one of the most fascinating groups in European and World history.
Fascinating not only for their contributions, either independently or via their influence on Christianity to European culture, but also for their extraordinary survival as a community against all odds in a totally hostile environment.
In many ways, the Jewish minority has been the yard-stick on which the capabilities of a society to tolerance and enlightenment ( in want of a better word) can be measured.
Judaism, as Christianity and Islam, has been a important and necessary step in the development of human belief systems and thought, and is therefore neither good nor evil.
As for the State of Israel, as many problems as I have with its opressive policies, I detect here more potential in wanting and being able to achieve a peaceful solution for Palestine than amongst its many enemies, above all the fascistoid Iranian regime. In fear of what might come in its stead were it destroyed, it's existence must be guaranteed and be politically defended.
Edited by Komnenos
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malizai_
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Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 16:16 |
persecuted, survivors plotters, energetic, industrious, very intelligent, antagonists, can not discuss history without mentioning jews, diverse people, secretive, rich.
They have the collective knowledge and accumulated wisdom, unparralled by any other people. As old as moses.
I didnt read any other posts and jotted down whatever came to my head, so it is pretty honest list.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
When i was young I went to watch cricket at Lord cricket ground and was for some stupid reason baffled as to y a jewish guy was watching cricket.(ie, what did cricket have to do with him, it semed something very remote).
Somethings that amaze me about jewish practices is the covering of hair by a woman using a wig. Another one is usury which i think is forbidden.
I am deeply interested in the Donmeh and their life in Turkey. Also the jewish claims of lost jews in Afghanistan.
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Cywr
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Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 17:36 |
When i was young I went to watch cricket at Lord cricket ground and was
for some stupid reason baffled as to y a jewish guy was watching
cricket.(ie, what did cricket have to do with him, it semed something
very remote). |
Sadly, its contagious, even the Dutch have taken it up.
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Arrrgh!!"
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 18:50 |
I don't look at ethnic Jews differently than
any other group. Doesn't bother me when one believes in Judaism,
either. I don't like the institutionalized system of belief, but if
someone believes in it I'm fine with it as long as theyre not trying to
convert me or openly judging me based on their values. This applies to
people of all religions, not just Jews.
To be honest, though, even though I don't like
or dislike Jews more than another group, I have to say I use the term
"Jew" around friends. When someone is being cheap, sneaky, etc. But I
even do this with Armenians...when I hear of people busted for any type
of fraud I'll say something like "What an Armenian move". So its not
exclusive to Jews or anything, I like ethnic jokes as a way of laughing
about our differences (however exaggerated they might be) instead of
fighting about them.
I think Jewish history and Armenian history
have many similarities. Mainly the non-stop persecutions (Jews had it
worse in my opinion-but not in the present day), and also the large
diaspora and being able to keep their cultures alive even though they
were far from their homeland.
I don't have a problem with the existence of
Israel, I just don't agree with their state policies and as a result
Israel (as an institution) tends to irritate me.
Originally posted by Halevi
As a non-zionist, agnositc-atheist freethinking ethnic jew |
By agnostic-atheist, I assume you mean that
you switch between the two on occasion. I'm agnostic, myself (with
slight instances where I had accepted atheism).
Edited by ArmenianSurvival
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance
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Paul
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Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 23:56 |
Originally posted by Mixcoatl
So if you are an athiest, you are definately not a Jew. |
In Dutch there is a difference between Jood (Jew) and jood (jew), the first one meaning somebody with a Jewish ethnicity, the second one meaning somebody who believes in the jewish religion (In Dutch ethnicities are capitalized and religions are not, so Halevi is a Jew but not a jew). Perhaps it's a good idea to use the Jew/jew difference here as well, to avoid confusion.
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But both 'jood' and 'Jood' are not an ethnicities. One is a faith and the other a myth sprung from a faith. The ethnic term in this sense is a religious one too. So called 'Jood' are as ethnically diverse as the people of Europe and the Middle East.
Edited by Paul
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Maju
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Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 01:08 |
Originally posted by Theophos
Originally posted by Maju
What worries me actually is Christianity. It's a foreign (Hebrew) religion that has nothing to give us Europeans. We need to get rid of that: it just confuse our identity. |
I guess you have a confused identity then. |
No. I have not: Christianity is an Oriental religion.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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