Something very remarkable is happening around the globe and, if you want the short version, a Muslim demonstrator in Toronto the other day put it very well:
''We won't stop the protests until the world obeys Islamic law.''
"The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them....Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people, and destroying embassies....We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant.....The Jews have came from the tragedy (of the Holocaust), and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror, with their work, not their crying and yelling."
Host: Who came up with the concept of a clash of civilizations? Was it not Samuel Huntington? It was not Bin Laden. I would like to discuss this issue, if you don't mind...
Wafa Sultan: The Muslims are the ones who began using this expression. The Muslims are the ones who began the clash of civilizations. The Prophet of Islam said: "I was ordered to fight the people until they believe in Allah and His Messenger." When the Muslims divided the people into Muslims and non-Muslims, and called to fight the others until they believe in what they themselves believe, they started this clash, and began this war. In order to start this war, they must reexamine their Islamic books and curricula, which are full of calls for takfir and fighting the infidels.
I call this "Islamic Entitlement" to bring to light something important. Many Muslims expect the world to follow their laws, or to accommodate them instead of them actually conforming to the world. Of course I dont speak about all Muslims, but there are allot of them who may not be terrorists but perhaps believe in this form of entitlement, a sort of "my way of the highway."
And there is a good point that woman made: "The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them..."
She also rightly points out that Islam should not worry about what their neighbors believe but keep to them selves.
The bottom line is, Muslims need to accept that there will be different religions and faiths, and even insults to their faith, but it does not excuse the violence the extremists use.
Something very remarkable is happening around the globe and, if you
want the short version, a Muslim demonstrator in Toronto the other day
put it very well:
''We won't stop the protests until the world obeys Islamic law.''
There are many places in the world where muslims do not believe that. The muslim community in America has never advocated that. I can understand muslims being united agaisnt the cartoon issue, but it's rough to associate all muslims with the radical idea that they all want to implement Sharia law, as there are over 1 billion muslims. Way to big of a generalization.
there are over 1 billion muslims. Way to big of a generalization.
Unfortuanately the same isn't true of the press and you can generalise them as being xenophobic, deceiving, hate mongers.
I went to the Middle East and I felt a hell of a lot safer wandering alone around than in the US, met many more friendly people too. Didn't see any,
burning down churches, killing people, and destroying embassies....
And as for Sharia Law, and eveyone having to conform. I was fed very well all day during Ramadan and even got sold food on a Friday night, as special case, not being a muslim. In fact I even managed to get drunk by mid-afternoon on several occaisions during Ramadan.
I'm sure there are many kinds of Muslims but we only see one type of them in the news: the ones that yell and kill for a drawing. We don't see the Muslims saying: "Brothers and sisters have you gone mad? Why all this noise, threats and bloodshed? Is it for a stupid caricature? When are you goig to grow up?"
When I see those inteligent and open Muslims, not just as private people but as organized people that dare to stand up against their own correligionaries for the sake of Humankind and Human Rights, I'll believe that there are factions of Muslims that are acceptable.
I have the same problem with Christians, specially Catholics, anyhow.
So I prefer the apostates. They say: "I don't like you, I'm not going to be your brother anymore". I am one.
What sort of propaganda is this? Half the things you accuse muslims of is blatenly unislamic.
Eg,
a Muslim demonstrator in Toronto the other day put it very well:
''We won't stop the protests until the world obeys Islamic law.''
Well you can tell him that under Islamic Law (Sharia) all non muslims
are excluded (except taxes). That means Loknar, if USA implemented
Sharia tomorrow it wouldn't affect you one iota. Under Sharia, only
muslims can be ruled by Sharia.
Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people,
Blatently unislamic. Churches are as sacred as mosques as they are
'houses' of God. Killing people is only permitted if your being
persectued. And as a death penalty for murder and treason during war.
We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German
restaurant.....The Jews have came from the tragedy (of the Holocaust),
and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with
their terror, with their work, not their crying and yelling."
One word: Israel.
Host: Who came up with the concept of a clash of civilizations? Was it
not Samuel Huntington? It was not Bin Laden. I would like to discuss
this issue, if you don't mind...
The concept was around in Roman times. The eastern empire vs the
western empire. You may note that the adoption of christianity in the
empire was seen as a victory of the eastern influences.
The Prophet of Islam said: "I was ordered to fight the people until they believe in Allah and His Messenger."
Ahh no. God told Muhammad (pbuh) Don't worry if they don't believe you,
its not your fault. Leave them to God alone. (different words of course
but I can't be bothered looking up the quote)
What sort of propaganda is this? Half the things you accuse muslims of is blatenly unislamic.
Eg,
a Muslim demonstrator in Toronto the other day put it very well:
''We won't stop the protests until the world obeys Islamic law.''
Well you can tell him that under Islamic Law (Sharia) all non muslims
are excluded (except taxes). That means Loknar, if USA implemented
Sharia tomorrow it wouldn't affect you one iota. Under Sharia, only
muslims can be ruled by Sharia.
Then why all that noise, threats and assasination regarding non-muslims as Rushdie, van Gogh or the Danish cartoonists?
...
Said that, the site is pretty propagandistic: of the sort of Christian Zionist propaganda that they like in the USA.
...
But the behaviour of Muslims toward non-Muslims as the aforementioned is truly worrying anyhow.
You say that sharia doesn't apply to me. But I see in the former examples that it does.
Besides, each time that a woman is stoned for adultery, I suffer deeply. I can't accept that penal code anywhere in the world.
We will see Muslims accepting civil law by grade or by force.
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Online Status: Offline
Posts: 584
Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 05:42
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
What sort of propaganda is this? Half the things you accuse muslims of is blatenly unislamic.
Eg,
a Muslim demonstrator in Toronto the other day put it very well:
''We won't stop the protests until the world obeys Islamic law.''
Well you can tell him that under Islamic Law (Sharia) all non muslims
are excluded (except taxes). That means Loknar, if USA implemented
Sharia tomorrow it wouldn't affect you one iota. Under Sharia, only
muslims can be ruled by Sharia.
Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people,
Blatently unislamic. Churches are as sacred as mosques as they are
'houses' of God. Killing people is only permitted if your being
persectued. And as a death penalty for murder and treason during war.
We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German
restaurant.....The Jews have came from the tragedy (of the Holocaust),
and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with
their terror, with their work, not their crying and yelling."
One word: Israel.
Host: Who came up with the concept of a clash of civilizations? Was it
not Samuel Huntington? It was not Bin Laden. I would like to discuss
this issue, if you don't mind...
The concept was around in Roman times. The eastern empire vs the
western empire. You may note that the adoption of christianity in the
empire was seen as a victory of the eastern influences.
The Prophet of Islam said: "I was ordered to fight the people until they believe in Allah and His Messenger."
Ahh no. God told Muhammad (pbuh) Don't worry if they don't believe you,
its not your fault. Leave them to God alone. (different words of course
but I can't be bothered looking up the quote)
Dearest Omar, you are a brilliant example of humanity. You will do
anything in you intellectual power to reconcile your a-priori belief
system with your perceived reality. I admire your success in coping
with the meaninglessness of life by adapting your theism so adeptly.
Please see my Atheism post:
[The beauty of religious texts and organized religions in general is that] they are based on an assumption of a-priori belief in a higher power. That tends to work pretty well, since most people have an intense psychological need to
believe the world - and their lives, in particular - are inherently
meaningful... that there's some sort of grand plan that implies their
lives aren't useless or temporary.
Ready-made religions (Islam,
Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, etc) fill that
niche perfectly (which is why they last). The system's already there
for you - all you have to do is
'take Jesus into your heart' or utter 'la ilaha, etc'. They require
minimum intellectual effort on the part of the believer. Combined
with a
system of heirarchy and hero-worship, that makes for a pretty potent
psychological mixture. Hence the popularity of organized religion.
(Amusingly, people tend to swallow whatever religious system they're
born into, and then profess it to be the only 'truth'. This is despite
the fact that, had they been born into a different system, they'd
likely have a different opinion.)
Even for those who are skeptical of organized religion, the psychological need for meaning is pretty powerful.
For example, even brilliant scientists such as Albert Einstein felt
compelled to believe in a 'higher power'. Without this belief, some
people become so ungrounded by the inherent meaninglessness of life,
that they simply cannot adequately cope with reality.
I would go so far as to say that the human tendency to believe in a
higher power - or at least in some overarching, meaningful system - is
actually an evolutionary adaptation!
People who spend time picking apart the the rationale behind religion
and religious traditions - investigating the ultimate meaninglessness
of reality - often end up in a somewhat paralyzed mental state, since
their lives eventually become devoid of meaning.
Many of these people
in fact end up committing suicide (see existential thinkers, and many
other intellectuals).
This sort of introverted navel-staring does not
make for a particularly successful breeder!
(Organized) religions allow people to repress the inherent
meaninglessness of reality, not to mention their own mortality, and let them get
on with the job of living... or, in previous eras ... the job of
procreating and providing for your offspring, so they can go on to
procreate, etc, etc.
This mental adaptation is usually so powerful that no amount or kind of
'proof' can rid people of their deep beliefs about God, or prophets, or
angles, or reincarnation, or, basically, meaning. Rather, people tend
to interpret and shape their observations so that they jive with their
chosen belief system.
They're usually wrong, of course, or at least deluding themselves. But
that really doesn't matter too much, so long as their beliefs let them
get on with life.
I do it too, of course, and so do you, although we like to think we don't. =)
Please, i'd really like to hear what you all have to say about this point of view.
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Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2979
Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 05:54
oh
i said it before and saying it again there are always minorities who gives the wrong messeage.
islam started with other religion existed with it and it has laws and rules about respect to non-muslims and respect their belive and their place of worship.
if you are the type of people who love to judge others because of their minorities and accusing the whole religion which is around for more than 1400 years of being racist and does not accept others who does not follow it then you are wrong. many examples showed non-muslims living in muslims countries in the past and they did not face problems other people faced when they lived under some other religions.
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Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 584
Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 06:12
Assalaamu aleikum, ya azimuth
Originally posted by azimuth
...many examples showed non-muslims living in muslims countries in
the past and they did not face problems other people faced when
they lived under some other religions.
I agree. I think this is mainly because the minorities you speak of, during the eras you describe, were precisely that: minorities. Dhimmis.
Non-muslims subject to extra taxes (in return for protection... much
like NY neighbourhoods run by the Sicilian mob, or any taxing
nation-state with a police force or army).
There are, of course, plenty of examples over the course of Muslim history where minorities were persecuted. (Modern day Iran, for example, re: Baabis, Baha'is, Zoroastrians, etc).
I think a lot of Muslim anger these days comes from the fact that Muslims now often find themselves to be the minority
in their society (or, worse, relatively powerless in the world system).
The usually-expansionist religion of Islam (at the mass level, anyway)
is much better adapted to being in a ruling position.
A position of power. This enables it to enjoy the luxury of tolerance.
The same could be said of plenty of other belief systems.
What sort of propaganda is this? Half the things you accuse muslims of is blatenly unislamic. Eg,
The big problem is, the extremist voice is much louder than the moderate voice.
''We won't stop the protests until the world obeys Islamic law.'' Well you can tell him that under Islamic Law (Sharia) all non Muslims are excluded (except taxes). That means Loknar, if USA implemented Sharia tomorrow it wouldn't affect you one iota. Under Sharia, only Muslims can be ruled by Sharia.
Tell me, do you support Sharia law?
Blatantly unislamic. Churches are as sacred as mosques as they are 'houses' of God. Killing people is only permitted if your being persectued. And as a death penalty for murder and treason during war.
OF course I personally see nothing wrong with that.
One word: Israel.
Of course you are entitled to this opinion.
The concept was around in Roman times. The eastern empire vs the western empire. You may note that the adoption of christianity in the empire was seen as a victory of the eastern influences.
Of course, you may be correct. I do know the Romans were superior culturally and saw the others they conquered as inferior in culture. And they were correct for the most part.
I dont agree with everything that woman said but she makes some good points.
Ahh no. God told Muhammad (pbuh) Don't worry if they don't believe you, its not your fault. Leave them to God alone. (different words of course but I can't be bothered looking up the quote)
I believe you. She isnt even a Muslim, all I can say is she made good points.
i said it before and saying it again there are always minorities who gives the wrong messeage.
islam started with other religion existed with it and it has laws and rules about respect to non-muslims and respect their belive and their place of worship.
if you are the type of people who love to judge others because of their minorities and accusing the whole religion which is around for more than 1400 years of being racist and does not accept others ho does not follow it then you are wrong. many examples showed non-muslims living in muslims countries in the past and they did not face problems other people faced when they lived under some other religions.
Certainly, the Muslims didnt support the pagans did they? When Mohammed entered Mecca I know he destroyed all religious relics, be it Christian, Jewish or pagan.
I don't know if anyone has brought up the novel "The Da Vinci Code" during the heated exchanges on the Danish cartoons. I believe that the controversies surrounding this book may be a pretty good indication of how the Christian community (Catholic and Protestant) in general reacts to "blasphemous" material (printed, movies, etc.) differently from the Muslim community, and in a way that may also help to illustrate Locknar's point of "Islamic Entitlement".
(By the way, I am NOT a Christian. I am an atheist.)
I haven't read the book myself, but from the many many many things that have been written on the novel, I kind of know the plot of the story and I think it can be seen from any angle as extremely "blasphemous" - Jesus, believed to be the Son of God (i.e. God Himself) by most Christians - was depicted as just a flesh and blood human being who had sex a woman and even fathered a child!!!! To put this in context, what the novel is suggesting (despite its fictitious claim) is that the whole Christian faith is built on a lie, and that Jesus had sexual desires like any human being.
If that's not blasphemy, I don't know what that is.
While there have been a lot of severe criticisms of the novel (mostly on how cr*ppy it really is from a literary point of view, ironically one of its critics is Salman Rushdie ... ) and there have even been calls for boycotting the soon-released movie version of the novel (featuring the much-loved Tom Hanks) by some Christian groups, no one has called for the burning or the banning of the book, let alone the murder of Dan Brown or Tom Hanks.
How do we explain that? We can say maybe Western society has a higher level of tolerance for divergent and even offensive expressions of ideas, or maybe we can say, as suggested by Loknar, that Muslims have this "sense of entitlement" that everyone in the world, Muslims or non-Muslims, has to show the same deference to their religion and their Allah.
I would not catagorize the wishes of most Moslems as being called an entitlement. In the cartoon caper/de Vinci code analogy each community has it's views on what the material in question portrays. The difference in reactions may show how the communities react to such offenses.
This is not the last or the first offense to either religion. If we dig in the not so distant past we would find the burning of Beatle records due John Lennon's infamous "We are bigger than Christ" statement as an irrational reaction by the American bible belt. I see a similarity with the moslem protests. Eventually it was something blown way out of proportion and shouldn't have recieved the press that it actually did. Could have been taken with a grain of salt. But blasphemy is the same all over the world. When someone ridicules the object of ones admired attention a can of worms will always be opened.
Would I have liked to see some of the moslem communities protest in a more effective and mature fashion. Sure would. Was a reaction warrented by those who were offended. Sure was.
I for one do not expect another religious group to owe me anything but civility and vica versa. But this is my standard that is shared by millions of other moslems, christians, atheists, etc. To each there own.
I don't know in the States but I was reading that the last person to be prosecuted for blasphemy in Norway was in the 1930s - 80 years ago! And he was acquitted. The situation is simmilar in most of Europe.
Blasphemy is not a crime but a right in our universe. Whoever doesn't like it may go to the mosque/church/sinagogue and pray till he/she dies of starvation.
You can burn books, banners or photos if that makes you happy. But do not dare to threat or kill anyone.
I'm sure there are many kinds of Muslims but we only see one type of them in the news: the ones that yell and kill for a drawing. We don't see the Muslims saying: "Brothers and sisters have you gone mad? Why all this noise, threats and bloodshed? Is it for a stupid caricature? When are you goig to grow up?"
When I see those inteligent and open Muslims, not just as private people but as organized people that dare to stand up against their own correligionaries for the sake of Humankind and Human Rights, I'll believe that there are factions of Muslims that are acceptable.
My advice is to change the channel. They are everywhere, you just have to open your eyes and look.
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