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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Azerbaijani Origions
    Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 21:40

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijanis#Possible_Iranian_o rigins

Turkic background examined

Turkic invaders have been coming to Azerbaijan for centuries, but it remains unclear if all or most settled and remained in Azerbaijan (as opposed to other parts of the Caucasus and Southwest Asia) or simply came and went over the ages, until one group, the Oghuz remained in large enough numbers to alter the region. Morphological factors of the Azeri people in isolated rural areas appears quite similar to some nearby Turkic peoples, especially with regards to the Turkmen and Turks of Turkey.

According to Caucasus Albanian historian Moses Kalankatly, in the period between 191-200 CE, hordes of Barsil and Khazar Turks crossed the Kura river into what is today known as Azerbaijan.

Other noted historians include Tabari, who describes in detail various incursions into Azerbaijan by Ural-Altaic tribes (Huns and Khazars) in the 4th and 5th centuries CE. Tabari also states that by the mid-6th century, there was a significant Turkish presence in Azerbaijan and other adjacent regions.

Kalankatly also states that in the year 629, the army of the Gokturks as well as a series Khazar Turkic tribes entered Azerbaijan and declared the land to be the "eternal possession" of the Turks.

Byzantine sources of the mid-6th century refer to the "settlement of Khazar Turks" in the left bank of the Kura river and Kalankatly makes reference to a "Hun state" on the left bank of the Kura River in the 7th century.

According to Professor Peter B. Golden, "In the course of the seventh century, the two major tribal unions emerged in Azerbaijan under the Turk banner: the Khazars and the Bulgars...the Khazars formed the bulk of the Turk forces used by the Byzantine Emperor Heraclius (610-640) in his counter-offensive against the Sasanids (rulers) in Azerbaijan".

A pre-Islamic Turkic presence in Azerbaijan is evident in literature after the Islamic conquest of the region, in an era that was famous for its historical, geographical and scientific analyzations of the world by Muslim scholars. According to the 7th century work of Ubeid ibn Shariyya al-Jurhumi, the Muslim Caliph Mueviyyen (661-680) was told that Azerbaijan "has long been a land of Turks. Having gathered over there, they have mixed with one another and become integrated."

It must also be noted that the famous "Book of Dede Korkut" which is the epic of the Oghuz Turks (considered by Azeris to be their primary ancestors) was written in central-Asia in the 6th and 7th centuries.

What should be noted is that the demographics and social conditions are difficult to ascertain under 'Turkic' rule. Many question remain difficult to answer including whether the Turkic tribes replaced the peoples who lived in Azerbaijan before their arrival or simply mixed with them?

Possible Iranian origins

Life for rural Azeris of Iran closely resembles that of Persians and in large cities such as Tabriz, Urmia and Ardabil, many Azeris resemble the Iranian ethnic groups. Nearly all the vocabulary and habits related to settled life in those areas are still the original Iranian (Tatic) vocabulary and habits which have survived the linguistic Turkification of the region. Other qualities that link the Azeris to the Persians include the word Azerbaijan which is attested to have been derived from the Persian Azar-padegan and means The Land of the Protector of Fire. Alternatively, the name is believed to have come from Atropates, an Iranic leader who ruled Azerbaijan during the period of Alexander of Macedon's defeat of the Achaemenid Persian Empire. The word Atropates itself means the "Protector of Fire".

From a historical perspective, according to the 1911 Encyclopdia Britannica "the people of the Mada (Mata), the Medes, appear in history first in 836 B.C., when the Assyrian conqueror Shalmaneser II in his wars against the tribes of the Zagros received the tribute of the Amadai...

Herodotus gives a list of six Median tribes among them, the Paraetaceni...names in the Assyrian inscriptions prove that the tribes in the Zagros and the northern parts of Media [Azerbaijan] were Iranian but an aboriginal population...perhaps connected with the numerous tribes of the Caucasus (northern Azerbaijan, Albania)...Gelae, Tapuri, Cadusii, Amardi, Utii and other tribes in northern Media (Azerbaijan) and on the shores of the Caspian were not Iranians. With them Polybius, Strabo and Pliny mention the Anariaci, whom they consider as a particular tribe; but in reality their name, the Non-Aryans, is the comprehensive designation of all these small tribes..."

A Caucasian background rediscovered

Many modern Azeris, not unlike the Turks of Turkey, have, during their journey into discovering their roots, come across forgotten possible ancestors. As many modern Turkish historians looked to the possibility that groups such as the Hittites may have contributed significantly to the modern Turks, many Azeris have also looked to ancient peoples in order to better under their own background. In the case of the Azeris, there is some evidence that, in-spite of repeated invasions and migrations, an aboriginal element survived and thrived in what is today Azerbaijan even as the language and religions changed over time. Academic Audrey L. Alstadt notes in her book, The Azerbaijani Turks: Power and Identity under Russian Rule, that many modern Azeris regard both the Oghuz Turks and the Albanians of the Caucasus as their ancestors, in particular as there is no political rivalry with either an extinct language group or the Oghuz who have undoubtedly bequeathed their language to the Azeris.[7] Regardless, considerable information has been learned about the Caucasian Albanians, including their language and history in the region as well as their conversion to Christianity. In addition, some believe that the Udi language, which is a Caucasian language is a remnant of the ancient Albanians who were assimilated into various invading cultures over time. Lastly, ethnic animosity and rivalry with many of their neighbors has possibly prevented the modern Azeris from examining possible ties to their immediate neighbors. What remains difficult to determine is the overall number of Turkic invaders which may not have been enough to alter the population dramatically in the genetic sense.

Genetic evidence

The population of Azerbaijan is undoubtedly diverse, but there appear to be distinct traits that have been discovered through genetic testing that may reveal much about the background of the modern Azerbaijanis. Recent genetic tests have revealed that the Azeris cluster more with other peoples of the Caucasus than with other regional groupings.[8] This is not the end of the diversity found amongst the Azeris as the peoples of the Caucasus also show a great deal of similarity with the Iranian peoples as well, but to a degree that is somewhat reduced in comparison to their relationship with fellow Caucasian peoples, but greater than their relationship with Europeans north of the Caucasus.[9][10] In addition, in-spite of their Turkic linguistic background, the Azeris, like the Turks of Turkey, do not share most of their genetic background with Central Asian populations, although there is evidence of genetic admixture derived from Central Asian Turkic groups, in particular the Turkmen found across the Caspian Sea, that is higher than that of their neighbors including the Georgians, Armenians, and Persians. Other tests indicate that the Azeris not only closely resemble their Caucasian neighbors, but also display many genetic markers found in European populations.[11] The preliminary conclusion from the series of genetic testing shows the Azeris to be a somewhat mixed population with relationships, in order of greatest similarity, mainly with the Caucasus followed by lesser similarities with Europeans, Iranian peoples, and Turkic peoples.

Genetic analysis of mtDNA, have shown that Azerbaijanians are more closely related genetically to their geographic neighbors in the Caucasus and not to their linguistic neighbors elsewhere. In addition, studies have demonstrated that Caucasian populations are genetically intermediate between European and Near Eastern populations, but that they are more closely related to European than to Near Eastern populations. By contrast the analysis of Y-chromosome shows a closer genetic relationship with the Near East than with Europe. These studies suffer from numerous drawbacks and any conclusion must be drawn cautiously. The analysis have been done only on a very limited set of genes and also no sample have been taken from Iran where most of Azerbaijanis live. Analyses of autosomal chromosomes and a wider sampling are needed to verify these controversial hypotheses. [12].

It is yet not clear what the true origions of the Azerbiajani's are. Like the article says, genes from Iranian Azerbaijani's has yet to be taken. But for now, here is more information about the Iranic ruler of the area now known as Azerbaijan, many many years before Turkic tribes even came to the area:

Atropates

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Atropates (in Greek Aτρoπατης; in Old Persian Atarepata), called Atrapes by Diodorus1, a Persian satrap, apparently of Media, had the command of the Medes, together with the Cadusii, Albani, and Sacesinae, at the battle of Gaugamela, 331 BC. After the death of king Darius III Codomannus (330 BC), he was made satrap of Media by Alexander the Great2. His daughter was married to Perdiccas in the nuptials celebrated at Susa in 324 BC; and he received from his father-in-law, after Alexander's death (323 BC), the province of the Greater Media.3 In the northern part of the country, called after him Media Atropatene, he established an independent kingdom, which continued to exist down to the time of Strabo.4 It was related by some authors, that Atropates on one occasion presented Alexander with a hundred women, said to be Amazons; but Arrian5 disbelieved the story.

I believe, that if the Aryan invasion theory is indeed correct, that the European connection of the Azeri's can be atributed to that, just like the other Iranic peoples.

Also, it is important to know that it is more likely that Iranic tribes settle the area originally then Turkic tribes, do to the fact that Turks originated farther away.

But I believe that the Azeri's were neither Iranic, nor Turkic, however, I also believe that if I had to choose between Iranic and Turkic, Iranic would make more sense, because it seems as though most historians agree that the Azeri's were Turkified.  However, if I had to choose between Iranic and some other unknown ethnicity, I would go with the unknown ethnicity, because the evidence is not enough consider Azeri's as Iranic.

Another convincing piece of evidence is that the article, along with many other Turks I have talked to, say that Turks and Azeribaijani's do not have much genetic similarity with the Central Asian Turks, which implies that Turkish Turks are mostly Anatolian after mixing with the local populations, and that Azeri's were of some other origion before mixing with the Turkic tribes.

It is also good to note that genetic evidence says that Azerbaijani's have both European and Near Eastern traits...

So again, Azeri's were either origionally Iranic or of some other unknown ethnicity, but it is almost impossible for them to have origionally been Turkic, however, Turkified Azeri's are now Turkic, much like Arabised Egyptians are now Arab.



Edited by prsn41ife
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 10:44
Aryan invasion/migration is not a theory for Iran, it is a hard, documented fact, as with Turkish ones. The only difference is that the population density was much higher when teh Turks came.

Edited by Zagros
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 14:04

guys, i got a few more articles to post about this issue, they should be interesting.

 

"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 14:05
Just be careful they are not redundant or incendiery and post them all in one thread, otherwise there will be lockings.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 18:59
Nobody mentions the big Turkic tribe wave into that area in Timurid empire, the Ankara wars in 1402 between Timur and beyazid. It is Timur who actually Turkifed whole anatolia and western Iran, he whas the one who toke tribes from CA and settled them in west Iran.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 19:02

Originally posted by DayI

Nobody mentions the big Turkic tribe wave into that area in Timurid empire, the Ankara wars in 1402 between Timur and beyazid. It is Timur who actually Turkifed whole anatolia and western Iran, he whas the one who toke tribes from CA and settled them in west Iran.

i clearly mentioned in my post about the turkification of the region.

and you by your own post, admit that azeri's are not origionally of turkic origin.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 19:47

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians#Origin

Expansion

The Indo-Iranians expanded widely into Central Asia from the Ural River in the west to the Tian Shan in the east, taking over the area occupied by the earlier Afanasevo culture, and defined by Transoxiana and the Hindu Kush (mountains) in the south. This region would later become for the most part exclusively Iranian.

Their history becomes sensational with their invention of the horse-drawn chariot.

First wave

Arkaim in Russia is believed to have been constructed by Indo-Iranian tribes some 4000 years ago.
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Arkaim in Russia is believed to have been constructed by Indo-Iranian tribes some 4000 years ago.
Main article: Indo-Aryan migration

The linguistic evidence is that the Indo-Iranians were the first to exploit the chariot, leading what is sometimes called the first wave of Indo-Iranian expansion. This expansion went into the Caucasus the Iranian plateau, Afganistan, and, most significantly, India. They also intruded into Mesopotamia and Syria, and introduced the horse and chariot culture to this part of the world.

They left linguistic remains in a Hittite discourse on horse-training written by one "Kikkuli the Mitanni". Other evidence is found in references to the names of Mitanni rulers and the gods they swore by in treaties; these remains are found in the archives of the Mitanni's neighbors. The time period for this is about 1440-1330 BCE.

The standard model for the entry of the Indo-European languages into India is that this first wave went over the Hindu Kush, either into the headwaters of the Indus or the Ganges (and probably, both). The earliest stratum of Vedic Sanskrit, preserved only in the Rigveda, is assigned to roughly 1700-1400 BCE.

Second wave

The Second Wave is interpreted as the Iranian wave. The Iranians would take over all of Central Asia, Iran, and for a considerable period, dominate the European steppe (the modern Ukraine) and intrude north into Russia and west into central and western Europe well into historic times and as late as the Common Era. The first Iranians to reach the Black Sea may have been the Cimmerians in the 8th century BCE, although their linguistic affiliation is uncertain. They were followed by the Scythians, who are considered a western branch of the Central Asian Sakas. The Rigvedic Kambojas may correspond to the Nuristani branch of Indo-Iranian. The Medes, Parthians and Persians begin to appear on the Persian plateau from ca. 800 BCE, and the Achaemenids replaced Elamite rule from 559 BCE.

In Central Asia, the Turkic languages and culture have replaced Iranian, but a substantial minority remains in Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan. The Iranian languages are now confined to Iran, Kurdistan, Afganistan, Pakistan, Tajikistan and the Caucasus.

and more on the indo-aryans/indo-iranians can be found here on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration

not only is it obvious that iranic tribes roamed not only central asia but eurasia before turks (infact, thousands of years before turkic tribes). so to say that:

1) no one inhabited azerbaijan before turkic tribes came there....

2) azerbaijani's were originally turkic....

3) that iranic tribes were never in the area....

is all just false!

yet the two practical choices still remian, either they were iranic or of some other ethnicity. which one is still not clear.

"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 04:24
Shah Abbas also resettled Turkmen Afshars in NW Iran/Karabakh
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 09:38
And Armenians...there was a story by an Armenian writer about Shah-Abbas's  deportations of Armenians to inner Iran.

many people didnt died though (unlike 400 years later ), and he actually gave them a new place to live, for free, and this was in 1500s...

Edited by mamikon
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 10:45
Those were Kurds, not Armenians, their descendants live in Khorassan and Gorgan and number about 700k, they still speak Kermanji - they were massacred/deported because they resisted the conversion to Shiism.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 10:46
Shah Abbas wanted to protect Armenians from Turks. And in fact he wanted to present his european allies how tolerant and respectfull he is toward christs, by settle Armeinans to Isfahan and building them churchs.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 13:56
yes I am aware,  note that my post doesnt diss on Shah Abbas...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 21:20
Originally posted by Zagros

Those were Kurds, not Armenians, their descendants live in Khorassan and Gorgan and number about 700k, they still speak Kermanji - they were massacred/deported because they resisted the conversion to Shiism.


     I think he was referring to the Armenians relocated from Julfa to a city Shah Abbas built just for the Armenians called "New Julfa" (back then it was across the river from the capital of Isfahan). Shah Abbas declared that it was not allowed for Muslims to live there among the Armenians. This is where that one Armenian church is that looks like a mosque. It was the only time in Armenian history that a Muslim king and Muslim workers built a Christian church.

It looks like a hybrid of an Armenian church and a mosque:

Originally posted by Maziar

Shah Abbas wanted to protect Armenians from Turks. And in fact he wanted to present his european allies how tolerant and respectfull he is toward christs, by settle Armeinans to Isfahan and building them churchs.


     I've heard/read that the reason he moved the Armenians was to create an empty buffer between his army and the Ottoman army. He wanted to keep the Armenian merchant class rich in order to benefit from their wealth, so he built them a city to compensate for uprooting them from their homes (Julfa was destroyed by his forces after he moved the Armenians out).

Originally posted by mamikon

many people didnt died though (unlike 400 years later ), and he actually gave them a new place to live, for free, and this was in 1500s...


     Ya, he did all that while at war with the Ottomans, too.


Edited by ArmenianSurvival
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 21:31
This church is in Isfahan isn't it?



I've heard/read that the reason he moved the Armenians was to create an empty buffer between his army and the Ottoman army.


True. I think what you mean is the scorched earth policy. When an army had to retreat and leave a few provinces to the ennemy, it would take all of its' inhabitants and make the land unusable. In this case, the retreating army was the Iranian one.

The Turks used that technique too, if I am not mistaken.


Edited by Artaxiad
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 21:34

even today, armenians are one of the most respected in all of iran.

the armenian sector of isfahan is very popular with tourists and they have the best "shirini's" there (sweets such as cakes, chocolates, etc... absolutely wonderful!).

iran has always been a tolerant country regarding religion and ethnicity.

however, under these mullahs, our bahai's brothers and sisters are being persecuted against! the only religion that is persecuted against in iran is the bahai religion.

"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 21:36

if armenians want to start a thread and talk about armenian iranian relations and churches in iran and stuff like that, feel free to

there are some wonder churchs in iran.

but this thread is about azeri's so back to subject



Edited by prsn41ife
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 21:51
Here's the map of the area in 900 AD, and I see "Emirate of Azerbaijan" which rules over what is now called "Republic of Azerbaijan" and Azeri provinces of Northern Iran. Do they have anything to do with modern-day Azerbaijanis? Were the inhabitants Arabs, Iranians, or Turks?



http://www.euratlas.com/summary.htm


Edited by Artaxiad
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 21:56

Originally posted by Artaxiad

Here's the map of the area in 900 AD, and I see "Emirate of Azerbaijan" which rules over what is now called "Republic of Azerbaijan" and Azeri provinces of Northern Iran. Do they have anything to do with modern-day Azerbaijanis? Were the inhabitants Arabs, Iranians, or Turks?



http://www.euratlas.com/summary.htm

that map is not correct.

abbasid empire:



Edited by prsn41ife
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 03:32
Well, you realise that both of you could be right and then again wrong with your maps. The Abbasid Caliphate stretched from around 750 to 1250 and it should be obvious that the maps included here above are just snapshots from a short period of time and could both be accurate in representing their realm at that certain moment in time.

Here are some maps from our site, and even though it's shows Armenia, I think it also shows the changes of the borders in the surroundings which illustrates the situation in the areas concerning Iranian Azerbaijan and the western part of Caspia.














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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 18:39

well, azerbaijan has never existed as an independent state. i dont know where you go those maps from.

 

"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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