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How would the Brittish, French or Dutch have ruled differently?

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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How would the Brittish, French or Dutch have ruled differently?
    Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 19:11
Spanish did have native slaves too. They bought Natchez slaves from the French in the Carribean, and enslaved the original Taino inhabitants.

Also, New Spain had thriving slave markets up until the early 1800s which traded whiskey, horses and guns to Ute, Apache, Comanche, and Navajo for native slaves they would capture on raids against other native groups (including each other). Paiute were a popular target.

Walkara is one of the historical figures from this episode, an Ute raider and trader who bought or raided for just about everything, whiskey, slaves, horses, guns. He sold slaves to the Spanish in return for horses, and sold horses to the Mormons in return for whiskey, and sold all manner of European goods to other native groups.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 20:07
Technically enslavement of Native Americans (Indians, as they used to call them) was allowed only on cannibals. There were no cannibals but the colonists, eager to get some workforce, blamed the Arawaks of cannibalism, from where the name Carib seems to come from.

So Caribs are just Arawaks (and Tainos maybe) who were not subjugated to Spanish rule and therefore were accused of cannibalism to go around the law that forbade enslaving of Native Americans.

I didn't kow about the Natchez slaves but guess that, as they had been captured by another people, that was perfectly legal - a French moral problem, in other terms.

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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 20:31
Hi,
To: Maju, you're playing with words and here are two examples:
1) the Mista system in Potosi mines, a remake of Mayan feudal slavery.
2) in 1580 when Portugal was taken by Philip II there were lots of slaves
in Brazil and very few (none as far as I'm concerned but I may be slightly
wrong) have sent free. (see the film The Mission)
Bye.
PS: but yes fighting slavery if only in words is already something. So a big
cheer up for Santiago, the Catholic Kings, the Dominican Friars, the
Jesuits and Las Casas!
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 20:39
Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by Maju

The association is not totally lacking meaning.


Definately not ... but I think it has to do with the lack of Scandinavian influence in the Latin countries, more than religion. Norse society was vigorous and injected new ideas about government into places like England (and, to a lesser degree, France).


This is racist ranting. There's no reason to think that Scandinavians made much for anywhere in Europe except their own countries. Normands, as have been discussed in other places were basically Frenchmen and spoke French - but even Norman influence is relatively irrelevant, though they seem to have ben preciated warriors.

If that "Norse vigour" you talk of is their barbaric warrying lifestyle - ok then. But I see no other influence that can be attributed to Norsemen at all.


The great shift in English society is attributed often to French influence, but it really underwent severe reorganization earlier during the under-recognized Danish "conquest", especially under Canute. And the Normans were, after all, Frankified Scandinavians. Germany was less influenced by Scandinavians themselves, but shared common characteristics. It's the juncture of Norse influence and Latin influence that produced a synthesis in the north which eventually became very powerful. IMHO.


Don't know if you realize that Anglo-Saxons and Danes are totally the same people, genetically and culturally speaking. Just that Anglo-Saxons arrived in an earlier wave.

But probably what makes England unique (more liberal) is their marginality and privitivism. What made them "backward" in the Middle Ages, their relative low developement of feudalism, the relatively good situation of women and peasants... all that allowed them to jump forward faster in Modernity, without the burdens that continental societies had to get rid of - sometimes in a violent and painful manner.

Only one country in Western Europe was less feudal than Britain (more Modern and Barbaric at the same time) that I know of: Navarre. But it was annihilated by its feudalist neighbours in a long struggle that was as much ideological as ethnical. Maybe this "modern barbarism" was also relevant in Scandinavia but I'm not so sure: when Britain had a long stabilished constitutional monarchy, the Danes and Swedes were still in the Absolutist phase, just as most other Europeans. Only Dutch and Swiss can compare.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 20:50
Originally posted by Maharbbal

Hi,
To: Maju, you're playing with words and here are two examples:
1) the Mista system in Potosi mines, a remake of Mayan feudal slavery.
2) in 1580 when Portugal was taken by Philip II there were lots of slaves
in Brazil and very few (none as far as I'm concerned but I may be slightly
wrong) have sent free. (see the film The Mission)
Bye.
PS: but yes fighting slavery if only in words is already something. So a big
cheer up for Santiago, the Catholic Kings, the Dominican Friars, the
Jesuits and Las Casas!


The mita, an Inca (not Mayan) workforce organization system (serfdom?) wasn't slavery as such... though it was surely close, we must remember that it was the native system and that feudal serfdom was then still frequent in Europe itself.

Portugal was united dynastically: there was never a legal union. In fact Spain didn't exist politically until the 17th century. While Philip II did style himself King of Spain (meaning the Iberian peninsula, as he was king of Castile, Aragon and Portugal), Aragonese realms and Portugal, among other states had their own laws. Aragonese subjects were mostly excluded from settling in or trading with Castilian American colonies, etc. It was a complex legal framework but talking of "Spain" is pretty much confusing: the power that owned America (east of the Tordesillas line) was Castile, not any "Spain".

Portugal did allow slave-trading - that's pretty clear. But Portugal wasn't Castile at any time, even in the period of personal union under the Philips.

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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 21:23
Hi,
Poo poo poo Maju's playing with words again.
Indeed, Mita was native system (damn I was quiete sure it was Maya )
and not legally slavery. But, slavery it was, in facts.
And hum let see, the "Spanish" king who was the one and only tie
between Iberian realms allowed slavery, but "Spain" didn't. Maju you're
sounding like an old Salamanca scholar full of tricks. Giving me
headaches with all these subtils definitions carralhio!

I don't know a damn about Navarre ( again) but England let say before
1688 is all but liberal or backward. From Henry V to the early Stuart they
had arguably one of the strongest state ever and some lords in the north
were ber powerfull.

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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 21:33
Hi again,
Maju any good book about Navarre/Basque country/Barn (like Euskadi
history for dumbbies)?

to edgewaters
ok I've just read your post at the end of the previous page. Sounds
better, be clearer the next time I almost died.
So in your opinion was are these Scandinavian characteristics that made
the UK what they are? (no tricks in the question I really wonder what your
opinion is)

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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 21:46

Originally posted by Maju

There's no reason to think that Scandinavians made much for anywhere in Europe except their own countries.

Rubbish. Russia isn't an impact? The Danification of England under Canute isn't an impact? The birth of British seapower as a reaction to Scandinavian raids isn't an impact?

If that "Norse vigour" you talk of is their barbaric warrying lifestyle - ok then.

Not even that, though I suppose that might have had something of an impact. More their social organization in tribal structures which had the kind of primitivist democracy seen in many tribal groups around the world. They did not have an abundance of outmoded, established institutions.

Don't know if you realize that Anglo-Saxons and Danes are totally the same people, genetically and culturally speaking. Just that Anglo-Saxons arrived in an earlier wave.

If the English really were just Anglo-Saxons, this idea would have some merit. Culturally, Denmark and England were very different before the Danes began to colonize England. Danes were seafaring, English were not, to name an obvious example. Danes were mostly pagan, English were mostly Christianized. Etc etc etc, too many massive differences to even mention. Similarities yes, but lets not overstate things by saying they were the "same" - you'd have to cast a net big enough to haul in half of Europe to say that. 

One must remember that the Anglo-Saxons did not wipe away the previous inhabitants, but assimilated them and in the process adopted portions of their culture - else you would not have pre-Roman British folk myths being recorded for the first time in the 1700 and 1800s. It's not clear Britain has ever been anything but distinct, due to its isolation.

But probably what makes England unique (more liberal) is their marginality and privitivism. What made them "backward" in the Middle Ages, their relative low developement of feudalism, the relatively good situation of women and peasants... all that allowed them to jump forward faster in Modernity, without the burdens that continental societies had to get rid of - sometimes in a violent and painful manner.

Right ... the same is even more true of the Scandinavian societies, this is exactly what I mean by "vigour". The Scandinavians had never even experienced urban civilization at any point in their history (unlike the English). Also their societies were relatively well-disposed to traders, with the elites eagerly engaging in it - the same is definately not true of medieval Europe. The more primitive influences coming from the north also injected a sense of individualism, again, something not really a feature of the majority of medieval Christian Europe. All this predisposed the cultures they influenced to become "first adopters" of new developments, developments which first surfaced in the more civilized centres like Italy but whose implementation and full realization was also difficult due to the conservative weight of such lengthy civilization and all its assorted institutions.

 

Nor was it only the Norse/Germanic influence ... all the former "fringe" areas around what were once Roman territories became powerhouses during the Middle Ages, including the Middle East and North Africa (and even Ireland, though only in a cultural sense). These cultures too impacted and revitalized parts of Europe, but, Latin Europe was better positioned to resist that impact (and consequently did not reap the same benefits). But even so, the "victims" of the middle ages, like Spain, became the top dogs of the early Renaissance, precisely because of those influences.

I'm at a loss to understand why this thinking should be branded racist ... it has nothing to do with race, it is more about established societies with strong institutions being less adaptable, less flexible, and less likely to become first adopters. When those institutions are destroyed - or never existed - and you add the benefits of the advances made in more civilized lands, you have a potent recipe for a vigorous first adopter. Same principle lies behind the current success of the US, even.



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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 22:36
Originally posted by edgewaters

Right ... the same is even more true of the
Scandinavian societies, this is exactlywhatI mean by "vigour".The
Scandinavianshad never even experienced urban civilization at any point
in their history (unlike the English). Also their societies were relatively
well-disposed to traders, with the elites eagerly engaging in it - the same
is definately not true of medieval Europe. The more primitive influences
coming from the north also injected a sense of individualism, again,
something not really a feature of the majority of medieval Christian
Europe. All this predisposed the cultures they influenced to become "first
adopters" of new developments, developments which first surfaced in the
more civilized centres like Italy but whose implementation and full
realization was also difficult due to the conservative weight of such
lengthy civilization and all its assorted institutions.



Mate be specific! Tell me where you get these ideas from (titles). It's just
doesn't make much sense to me right now.
Italians were 100% more genuinely individualist and commerce minded
then any Norse and so were North African (back to the topic of the
subforum).
Besides, the English Civil War, the Glorious revolution and the 15th
Swedish wars prove these two countries were not exactly tabulas rasas
waiting for some innovation to inseminate them.
Bye.
PS: sorry for thinking one second you were racist but once more you were
all but cleat.
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 23:57

 

[/QUOTE] Italians were 100% more genuinely individualist and commerce minded then any Norse and so were North African (back to the topic of the subforum). [/quote]

I can't say about the North Africans, but as far as the Italians are concerned: yes, they had a very developed commerical infrastructure, but, the top elites of the society were not traders. They were religious authorities and nobility who disdained that profession. As regards individualism, the aristocracies of feudal societies like Italy were much more entrenched and fixed and had far more control over the thoughts and opinions of the lesser ranks of society than the Scandinavian groups. Scandinavians had some chiefs and petty kings, and a warrior/trader class, but it was not a very top-heavy or rigidly entrenched set of institutions, it was quite primitive and unsophisticated as institutions of authority go, closer to a basic pecking order than an abstract galaxy of authority based in theoretical notions and dogma. Not to mention that a good deal of decision making in northern areas was still by tribal consensus, eg the Allthings of the Saxons and Norse - there was nothing much comparable in medieval Italy that I'm aware of. 

Besides, the English Civil War, the Glorious revolution and the 15th Swedish wars prove these two countries were not exactly tabulas rasas waiting for some innovation to inseminate them.

I think your chronology is a little off, or I don't understand your point. The last of the major foreign invasions into England ended more than half a millenia before the Civil War or the Glorious Revolution.

Nor am I entirely clear why a nation has to be a complete tabula rasa before it can have any foreign influence. Modern societies which have existed for centuries are being influenced by foreign ideas all the time; why should this be any different a millenia ago?

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 00:55
Originally posted by Maharbbal

Hi again,
Maju any good book about Navarre/Basque country/Barn (like Euskadi
history for dumbbies)?



The Basque History of the World, by Mark Kurlanski.

A good site to read on Basques in English is: http://www.buber.net/Basque/

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 01:14
Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by Maju

There's no reason to think that Scandinavians made much for anywhere in Europe except their own countries.

Rubbish. Russia isn't an impact? The Danification of England under Canute isn't an impact? The birth of British seapower as a reaction to Scandinavian raids isn't an impact?

It can be argued but it's nothing as for sure - Russians will say that Kievan Russia was built mostly by Slavs (that's arguable too). Building ships as a rection is not any favor, just a reaction. It's like saying that the greatness of Rome is due to Carthage - it may be said... but it sounds odd, to say the least.

Don't get me wrong: I like Norwegians and their sagas and I do think that the awakening of Northern Europe in the Middle Ages had a clear influence in Europe. But I don't think this influence is basically a constructive one: but rather a destructive one. Vikings were before anything raiders and pirates: nothing else.

If the English really were just Anglo-Saxons, this idea would have some merit. Culturally, Denmark and England were very different before the Danes began to colonize England. Danes were seafaring, English were not, to name an obvious example. Danes were mostly pagan, English were mostly Christianized. Etc etc etc, too many massive differences to even mention. Similarities yes, but lets not overstate things by saying they were the "same" - you'd have to cast a net big enough to haul in half of Europe to say that.

I didn't mean that the English were Anglo-Saxons - in a genetic sense. They are not, clearly. I just meant to say that before the Danes started oing their incursions, their great-grandfathers, the Anglo-Saxons had done about 2/3 of the same.

Anglo-Saxons come from Lower Germany and Denmark. Yet it's not clear that their influence was possitive, it just was - one of those accidents of history.

On the other hand I'm not so sure that British peoples were always so shy sailors. It's known that when the Norses arrived to Iceland, they found Irish monks there. It's kown that Britain had always belonges to an international trade route of tin. They can't just have been mere ignorants of the art of sailing, even if it wasn't their favorite sport at that time.


One must remember that the Anglo-Saxons did not wipe away the previous inhabitants, but assimilated them and in the process adopted portions of their culture - else you would not have pre-Roman British folk myths being recorded for the first time in the 1700 and 1800s. It's not clear Britain has ever been anything but distinct, due to its isolation.

Absolutely. Even in the most "Nordicied" corners of Britain, the proportion of aborigin blood seems at least of 50% (Orkney and Shetland) or 60% (York and Norfolk).

[quote] [quote]But probably what makes England unique (more liberal) is their marginality and privitivism. What made them "backward" in the Middle Ages, their relative low developement of feudalism, the relatively good situation of women and peasants... all that allowed them to jump forward faster in Modernity, without the burdens that continental societies had to get rid of - sometimes in a violent and painful manner.

Right ... the same is even more true of the Scandinavian societies, this is exactly what I mean by "vigour". The Scandinavians had never even experienced urban civilization at any point in their history (unlike the English). Also their societies were relatively well-disposed to traders, with the elites eagerly engaging in it - the same is definately not true of medieval Europe. The more primitive influences coming from the north also injected a sense of individualism, again, something not really a feature of the majority of medieval Christian Europe. All this predisposed the cultures they influenced to become "first adopters" of new developments, developments which first surfaced in the more civilized centres like Italy but whose implementation and full realization was also difficult due to the conservative weight of such lengthy civilization and all its assorted institutions.

 

Nor was it only the Norse/Germanic influence ... all the former "fringe" areas around what were once Roman territories became powerhouses during the Middle Ages, including the Middle East and North Africa (and even Ireland, though only in a cultural sense). These cultures too impacted and revitalized parts of Europe, but, Latin Europe was better positioned to resist that impact (and consequently did not reap the same benefits). But even so, the "victims" of the middle ages, like Spain, became the top dogs of the early Renaissance, precisely because of those influences.

I'm at a loss to understand why this thinking should be branded racist ... it has nothing to do with race, it is more about established societies with strong institutions being less adaptable, less flexible, and less likely to become first adopters. When those institutions are destroyed - or never existed - and you add the benefits of the advances made in more civilized lands, you have a potent recipe for a vigorous first adopter. Same principle lies behind the current success of the US, even.



I may have misunderstood you. Anyhow, my point is mostly socioeconomical: it's not just about "barbarism" and "civilization" but about the right set of values. Romans hated to work and despised trade... that sort of aristocratic values embedded Medieval societies and only few relatively un-romanized areas were "free" enough of such prejudices to eventually jump forward to a new set of values and a new economy, creating what we know now as the West. I am not so sure about the role of Scandinavia in all that. Scandinavia was always too small and to peripherical to count much... and I have yet to see when the Scandinavian nations were the first ones in something (piracy and other naval arts apart).

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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 01:57

Originally posted by Maju

  Building ships as a rection is not any favor, just a reaction. It's like saying that the greatness of Rome is due to Carthage - it may be said... but it sounds odd, to say the least.

The greatness of Roman naval forces certainly is ... that doesn't sound odd. If it happened to be that Rome were principally a naval power, I imagine the Carthaginians would be accorded much of a role in the Roman rise.

 Vikings were before anything raiders and pirates: nothing else.

That's a silly old stereotype. The Vikings did far more settling and trading than anything else. Christians demonized them during the medieval period, as they were brutal at times, but a nation of such cartoonish characters never would have travelled as far as they did: there's no point for Vikings to sail all the way to the Middle East or Sicily just to raid some village. They wanted to trade, and establish far-flung colonies to support a long-range trade network.

People get all taboo talking about Scandinavian contributions, worrying about racism and Hitlerian boogeymen, and then turn around and commit the very thing! It's not any more fair to describe Viking cultures as nothing but raiding and war than it is to describe Aztec culture as nothing but big pyramids and human sacrifice, or plains Indians as nothing but groups that liked to go around massacring white villages. I can't understand how people DO that.


Anyhow, my point is mostly socioeconomical: it's not just about "barbarism" and "civilization" but about the right set of values.

Right, but that "right set" was produced by synthesis and exchange of values between cultures, as much as evolution. A particularly strong synthesis occurred in the exchange between Europe's vigorous outer fringes (Scandinavia, North Africa, Ireland, Middle East, etc) and its civilized centers. The primary benefactors were Britain, France, Spain, Germany, and the Netherlands - all countries with one foot in the Roman legacy and another in the fringe.

 I am not so sure about the role of Scandinavia in all that. Scandinavia was always too small and to peripherical to count much... and I have yet to see when the Scandinavian nations were the first ones in something (piracy and other naval arts apart).

Well, it probably had a role in the English development of government ... things like jury trials are rooted in Danish traditions, even the idea of democratic decision making probably had more to do with roots in the Allthings of the Danes (or maybe Saxons, but they probably adopted it) than with any Greco-Roman ideals.

Scandinavia did have a few firsts (eg transoceanic settlement) but it wasn't Scandinavian culture alone that produced the stronger nations of the colonial era - it was a mix between the fringe cultures and the ideas coming out of the great centers of medieval Europe. Like a chemical mixture - helium alone is one thing, oxygen another, and H20 yet another thing altogether.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 10:31
Vikings never travelled to Sicily: those were Normans, who were an offshot but they were not Vikings anymore: they spoke French and were highly mixed with Frenchs.

True that Varangians did stabilish some trade route but they initially traded with the product of their pillage mostly. I may be steretyping Norsemen but I think you're exaggerating their importance too. In the West their role was mostly conquest and plunder and that's what the term "Viking" is about: piracy. They surely did some trade too but the traders of the High Middle Ages, once the Viking danger had vanished, weren't Danes or Norwegians: they were Flemish and Frisians, Italians and Germans, French and Jews. I don't deny they existed but I have yet to read about the typical Danish merchant as you read about the typical Flemish or Frisian one or about the typical Danish trade fair as you read about those of Lyons or Champagne, or about the Danish fleets loaded with much demanded products, as you read about those of Genoa or Lbeck.

Yes, the Scandinavians and specially their Russian and Norman offshots were a factor in Medieval Europe but nothing that the continent couldn't have made it without. The difference would have been only minor, specially considering that most of their peripheric state creations in Russia and the Near East were destroyed. Maybe Russia is the most affected region of all Europe as the Varangians seem to have provided the core aristocracy that articulated the Russian principlaities... but that's about all.

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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 11:00
Originally posted by Maju

I don't deny they existed but I have yet to read about the typical Danish merchant as you read about the typical Flemish or Frisian one or about the typical Danish trade fair as you read about those of Lyons or Champagne, or about the Danish fleets loaded with much demanded products, as you read about those of Genoa or Lbeck.


Considering there aren't alot of primary sources about anybody at all from Dark Ages, this isn't really surprising, is it?

Don't forget that not everyone in history gets credit in the popular imagination. There are books you can read about Viking traders, just like there are books you can read about Basque whalers in Newfoundland. There just aren't many because people who want to read about the Vikings want to hear exciting stories of guys with axes going crazy, and they don't want to read about some Norse guy rowing his little boat around in the freezing cold with a cargo of tin cups. If they wanted to read about traders, they'd want to read about some opulent Genoese merchant with a fleet of ships trading luxury goods to distant ports.

Most of the Viking ships found are not drakkar types, the warships, but trading ships like the knarr - and by far the most common is the little byrding, which had a relatively deep draught (can't go up rivers) carrying alot of cargo but not alot of deck space, just a tiny crew.

Not to mention somebody was running a long-distance maritime trading network in northern Europe in the Dark Ages - I'm pretty sure it wasn't Genoans or the Hanseatic League yet.

And I'll grant that the Normans weren't Vikings, but they were definately French with a twist. They were a perfect example of a synthesis with the "right set" I mentioned earlier - and without them, there wouldn't have been a Norman England. You can't see any impact there? Other Normans were busy subduing the Lombards and expelling Greeks and Arabs in southern Italy - still no impact? The kingdom of Naples and Sicily lasted until the mid-19th century! They built the first towns in Ireland - could the Irish have had their cultural golden age without any sizable settlements or coastal sites?

Edited by edgewaters
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 18:40
Originally posted by edgewaters

   There are books you can read about Viking
traders

Which ones?

Originally posted by edgewaters

Not to mention somebody was running a long-
distance maritime trading network in northern Europe in the Dark Ages [/
QUOTE]

Precisely nobody was and that is one of the reason of the weakening of
Charlemagne's heirs' empire: no more taxes from the trade points.

[QUOTE=edgewaters] The kingdom of Naples and Sicily lasted until the
mid-19th century!


It has nothing to do with it after mid 14th century.

Not amazingly convincing I must admit too broad and obscure to me.
But I'd like you to present precisely with a clear chronology your point, if
you don't mind so my doubts may vanish.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 00:18
Originally posted by Maharbbal

Hi,
Poo poo poo Maju's playing with words again.
Indeed, Mita was native system (damn I was quiete sure it was Maya )
and not legally slavery. But, slavery it was, in facts.
And hum let see, the "Spanish" king who was the one and only tie
between Iberian realms allowed slavery, but "Spain" didn't. Maju you're
sounding like an old Salamanca scholar full of tricks. Giving me
headaches with all these subtils definitions carralhio!

I don't know a damn about Navarre ( again) but England let say before
1688 is all but liberal or backward. From Henry V to the early Stuart they
had arguably one of the strongest state ever and some lords in the north
were ber powerfull.

Bye.


Look, Maharbal, I couldn't care less if Castile allowed slave-trading or it didn't. But the fact is that technically it didn't and that's the main reason you don't hear of Castilian (Spanish) slave-traders. You may find the mita or the encomiendas all the regrettable you wish but it wasn't slave trading in the normal sense of the word.

I don't understand what you mean by England having a "powerful state". Did they have nukes or something? I really don't understand what you mean.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 04:04
Originally posted by Maharbbal


Which ones?


Here's one.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0792251326?v=g lance

There are many others.

If you want university press you could try this:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0192801341?v=g lance

The whole notion of the Vikings as nothing more than raiders is as fictional and dated (but still just as present in pop fantasy) as horned helmets.

Precisely nobody was and that is one of the reason of the weakening of
Charlemagne's heirs' empire: no more taxes from the trade points.


The Franks lost revenue from their ports because they initiated trade sanctions against the Danes, in the early 9th century, to weaken them. Thus the Danes begin to attack the Franks in the mid-9th century, until a treaty was signed with Charles the Bald.

Edited by edgewaters
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 05:48
Hi,

maju:

I agree with your point about castilan slave-trade.

About English power in Europe, well I'm sure somewhere on the web there
are sites saying Cromwell used nukes.
No not jocking, it is quite clear English monarchy was extremely powerful
(relatively to the times). They were able to destroy whatever, wherever on
the planet. Only a powerful (thus liberal) government could do such a
thing. Am I unclear or am I unclear?

Obrigado edgewater I'll check out.
Bye.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 07:37
You are very unclear. 

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