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Topic ClosedHistory surrounding the invention of the term "Middle East"
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Maju View Drop Down
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Posts: 6565 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: History surrounding the invention of the term "Middle East"
    Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 23:08
Originally posted by gcle2003

Well, we're talking about the name in English, aren't we? The English name is obviously going to be set from an English point of view.

In German it is 'Mittelosten' but then it's east of Germany too. In Czech it's (apparently) stredni vychod, which also means middle east for the same reason, and the Czechs were never a colonial power in the region.

What's the area called in Chinese or Hindi?



All Europe use the same name because as the name evolved it was being translated to all languages. It's not any archaic localist invention it is a modern mediatized creation.

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Posts: 7035 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 07:05
Originally posted by gcle2003

Well, we're talking about the name in English, aren't we? The English name is obviously going to be set from an English point of view.

In German it is 'Mittelosten' but then it's east of Germany too. In Czech it's (apparently) stredni vychod, which also means middle east for the same reason, and the Czechs were never a colonial power in the region.

What's the area called in Chinese or Hindi?



Originally posted by Maju

All Europe use the same name because as the name evolved it was being translated to all languages. It's not any archaic localist invention it is a modern mediatized creation.

Originally posted by Kilikya

In fact it is possible, but certainly not obviously going to be set from an English pov.    That is the root of what we call cultural imperialism.  A name could easily adapt to the existing forms .  However I don't know of any pre-existing form except The Levant (French) which is basically Greater Syria. Palestine and coastal Egypt- Arabia which is the peninsula and Basra (Persian) Gulf, the Maghreb (North Africa), the Iranian Plateau and Anatolia.

Anyway, the thread is about the invention of the term.  And it is clearly a term that defines the region from a European point of view.  Whther that is bad or good, I don't know.

None of that alters the fact that a word in a particular language is going to reflect the point of view of speakers of that language. And there's no reason why it shouldn't. It's not bad or good, simply objective and natural.

If you want to talk about Devon, Somerset, Dorset, Wiltshire, etc in English you talk about the West Country. Obviously. Because if you're English they are to the west. It's not some relic of colonialism. Same goes for the Midlands and the North Country.

If you don't want to use the term 'Middle East' or 'Mittelosten' or 'Moyen-Orient' then use another language.

 

 
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Posts: 4221 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 08:51
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by gcle2003

Well, we're talking about the name in English, aren't we? The English name is obviously going to be set from an English point of view.

In German it is 'Mittelosten' but then it's east of Germany too. In Czech it's (apparently) stredni vychod, which also means middle east for the same reason, and the Czechs were never a colonial power in the region.

What's the area called in Chinese or Hindi?



Originally posted by Maju

All Europe use the same name because as the name evolved it was being translated to all languages. It's not any archaic localist invention it is a modern mediatized creation.

Originally posted by Kilikya

In fact it is possible, but certainly not obviously going to be set from an English pov.    That is the root of what we call cultural imperialism.  A name could easily adapt to the existing forms .  However I don't know of any pre-existing form except The Levant (French) which is basically Greater Syria. Palestine and coastal Egypt- Arabia which is the peninsula and Basra (Persian) Gulf, the Maghreb (North Africa), the Iranian Plateau and Anatolia.

Anyway, the thread is about the invention of the term.  And it is clearly a term that defines the region from a European point of view.  Whther that is bad or good, I don't know.

None of that alters the fact that a word in a particular language is going to reflect the point of view of speakers of that language. And there's no reason why it shouldn't. It's not bad or good, simply objective and natural.

If you want to talk about Devon, Somerset, Dorset, Wiltshire, etc in English you talk about the West Country. Obviously. Because if you're English they are to the west. It's not some relic of colonialism. Same goes for the Midlands and the North Country.

If you don't want to use the term 'Middle East' or 'Mittelosten' or 'Moyen-Orient' then use another language.

 

 

I am not sure why any of this is an issue.  The world view of all cultures emanates from their position as the center of their own world.

 
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Kilikya View Drop Down
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Posts: 65 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 09:28
[

[/QUOTE]

None of that alters the fact that a word in a particular language is going to reflect the point of view of speakers of that language. And there's no reason why it shouldn't. It's not bad or good, simply objective and natural.

If you want to talk about Devon, Somerset, Dorset, Wiltshire, etc in English you talk about the West Country. Obviously. Because if you're English they are to the west. It's not some relic of colonialism. Same goes for the Midlands and the North Country.

If you don't want to use the term 'Middle East' or 'Mittelosten' or 'Moyen-Orient' then use another language.

 

 

Exactly, it reflects the POV of speakers of that country.  That is what we are talking about.  What is the term Middle East say about the Western view of the Middle East?

Words are loaded.  To pretend that they are a neutral construct is simply fairyland.  Ask the Greeks about the name Macedonia (In Italian of course Macedonia means fruit salad).  perspective.

 teh Turks about

  We are talking about what the POV of speakers of English about the Middle East is. 

 

The POV of speakers in English when discussing teh Middle East smacks of

[/QUOTE]
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Kilikya View Drop Down
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Posts: 65 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 09:28
Sorry.  Still trying to figure out how to use this quote box
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Kilikya View Drop Down
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Posts: 65 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 09:29

 

 

how do you use it?
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gcle2003 View Drop Down
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Posts: 7035 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 07:41
Originally posted by Kilikya

Exactly, it reflects the POV of speakers of that country.  That is what we are talking about.  What is the term Middle East say about the Western view of the Middle East?

It's to the East of the West. Further than the Near East and closer than the Far East.

Seems reasonable. I don't hear people in Kansas complaining about being in the 'Mid-West'.

I don't even complain about Europe being called 'the West', though from the point of view of the English, whose language we are using, it isn't.

Words are loaded.  To pretend that they are a neutral construct is simply fairyland. 

Of course it's a neutral construct. There's nothing in the least derogatory about 'East'.  Otherwise people in Ipswich wouldn't say they live in East Anglia.

If anybody has reason to complain about English usage in this respect it's the Dutch, the Belgians, and the Luxembourgers who are said to live in the 'Low' countries.

Ask the Greeks about the name Macedonia (In Italian of course Macedonia means fruit salad).  perspective.

But that's all bound up with nationality and races and Slavs vs Greeks and all that sort of historical baggage. 'East' is purely a geographic term.
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Posts: 7035 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 07:48

Originally posted by Kilikya

how do you use it?

This is a little difficult to input without triggering off the quote mechanism. So I'll write a '{' or '}' where you should write a '[' or ']'

Everything between a {QUOTE} and a {/QUOTE} appears in a white panel indented. These can be nested with one {QUOTE}....{/QUOTE} pair inside another.

If you write e.g. {QUOTE=smith} the panel will have 'smith wrote' at the top of it.

Clicking on the 'quote' button brings up the original post with the necessary {QUOTE}s and {/QUOTE}s filled in.

You can write {quote} in upper or lower case.

 
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