Sun Tzu

What you would call a "original" Sun Tzu book isn't original at all.

It is clear that the Sun Tzu Bin Fa 13 chapter is only an abbreviated version itself.

People have claimed that you have found the long version, which is really long.  But most considers it a forgery.

I have the books in english..but never finished reading them...

I read a comic book version in my language and I find it interesting to see someone who came up with all these tactics at such ancient epoch

The audio book version is available, you may be able to acquire it somehow . . .   Its abridged, but well worth the time spent listening while you're stuck in gridlock or whatever . . .  If you find that interesting then you could find the "American" version which is about 200 pages available through most local libraries or bookstores if you ask nicely.

Well, friend demetrios, there's a reason why Sun Zi is universal and eternal. His art of war is like a book of common sense. But the problem is that there are many people without common sense. Throughout history I think you would be aware that there are generals and officers who lead men into battle without considering that would happen next. And I am sure that in dailylife such principles would also apply.

It is stating the obvious that's ingenius. The most ingenius chapter would actually be the first one in my opinion. Isn't Clausewitz's military theories similar?

   Clausewitz can't be compare to sun zi, Clausewitz is not obvious, his work on warfare is a complete one, it answer questions, it shows in details how to manage war

 Would you give command of your armies to someone whith no common sense???

  Regarding the fact that we only have Cao Cao short version, it doesn't change a thing because i'm speaking of this version, the one that everybody read, not an hypothetical one about which we don't know a thing. 

  If you want us to discuss about "Daodejing", it will be with pleasure, but please create a thread because here is not the place.

Oh? Ok. I am not aware of that. Can you post that as well?

Well, just in case you don't know, Newton's 3 laws of motion are just as obvious as Sun Tzu's art of war but yet Newton is considered a genius physicist. So I guess that is still where the ingenuity comes in.

The first law of motion:
1. An object at rest will remain at rest and an object in motion will remain in motion in the same direction in the absence of a net external force.

I think anyone can come up with that without even using their knee to think. However, Newton's the first one to write that down in words. That makes him the genius.

As for Sun Tzu's ingenuity, you can also see that from his application of his theories in the campaigns against Chu. Most impressive, I would say.

Edited by sephodwyrm

 " Sun Wu is not an historical figure, there's no proof of his existence, and no contemporary document mentionning him.Sima Qian bio of Sun Wu is very obscure,(written 400 years after his hypothetical date of life). It's not a reliable document."

 

The account of Shi Ji regarding to events after the 9th century are quite reliable, in that dates are in accord with historical records of the Eastern Zhou. There is no reason to suppose Sun Wu isn't a real figure, his documentation is very real and his campaigns and training methods are recorded well.

Shi Ji's documentation is far from obscure, in fact it stressed on Sun Wu as the most important figure of Wu at the period directing all the major policies, for example he was recorded to be important in the participation of taking the Chu capital of Ying.

The passage of Shi Ji records: "in the ninth year (506 B.C.), King He Lu addressed Wu Zi Xu and Sun Wu, saying: "Formerly, you declared that it was not yet possible for us to attack Ying. Is the time ripe now?" The two replied: "Chu's general Zi Chang is ambitious and greedy, and the princes of Tang and Cai both have a grudge against him. If Your Majesty has resolved to make a grand attack, you must win over Tang and Cai, and then you may succeed."

Sun Zi is in fact once thought to be Sun Bing, because past historians assumed the hightly tactical concepts of the Art of War wasn't in practice during the Spring and Autumn period, and that no mention of cavalry was in the text, that is until the Sun Bing Art of War is unearthed in 1972 which was different. Sun Bing's military manual rigidly divided battle into 3 units of infantry cavalry and chariots, also disproving the fact cavalry was not in existence before Zhao Wu Lin(not that Shi Ji itself didn't mention Ma Lin had cavalry in it already, which many simply ignored)

Sun Zhi is Sun Bing's great great grand father, meaning that he is Sun Bing's grand father's grand father.