Are Islam and democracy compatible really

Sultan

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Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 16:51

... apparently I am waiting in vain. Good night!

bg_turk

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Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 16:20

Spartakus,

You have miserably failed to prove that you are not a nationalist.

All I am asking you is to repeat after me:

"I Spartakus, hereby accept the right of every individual wherever in the world, whether in Greece or Turkey, Albania or Bulgaria, Germany or Australia (Leonidas Wink

), to refer to themselves by whichever ethnicity they identify themselves with and I recognize their right to preserve and promote their language, culture and religion, and to establish ethnic civil organizations in order to achieve this purpose."

State it and prove to us all once and for all that you are not a nationalist, dont give petty excuses. Show that you are a man of principle and that you are ready to apply the same demands to any country and any person regadless of their ethnicity.

I am waiting ...

Akolouthos View Drop Down

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Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 16:18

Originally posted by bg_turk

I personally unequivocally condemn any recent or current harrasments of minorities in Turkey and to a lesser extent in Bulgaria.

Well said! That was truly one of the most moving and encouraging things I have read on this forum. Turks, Greeks, Americans, and any other group that has ever or will ever possess power would do well to take your statement to heart. As a saint from Crete once said in response to Christians who tried to justify persecution of the Jews, "Injustice is injustice, regardless of who it is directed against."

Anyway, bravo, and thank you for brightening my day.

-Akolouthos

Edited by Akolouthos - 10-Jun-2006 at 16:23

Spartakus

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Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 16:06

You were saying hunting down the Kurdish people, now you have changed it one more time,well go on with that, but I won't discuss this in this topic about Islam and democracy's compatibility, open a different thread if you'd like to go over.

The word oppresion is a more polite word for the phrase hunted down.

Bg_Turk,You do not want to understand,that although there are Turks in Thrace,they are not the majority among the other muslims,so they can be considered a separate minority.You refuse to understand that,so it's not my problem.

these two sentences are an oximoron - the second is essentially the complete antidoe of the first.

Why it is oximoron?Hellas is not the craddle of democracy,meaning that it is not better than other European States,but it is far better than the other Balkan States.There is nothing oximoron in that.I compare Hellas with the Balkans,not with the whole world.If i did that,only then it would be oximoron.

Do you accept the right of any Greek citizen to freely call themselves Turkish, Slavic Macedonian or Bulgarian, and to establish cultural organizations that carry the those names in order to promote their linguistic and culutral heritage? Yes or no? If yes, how do you comment on the recent ban on the Turkish Teachers Union in Xanthi?

Do you want to call yourself a Hellen citizen with Turkish conscience and origin?It's fine with me.But if you do that, while sabotaging the Hellenic authorities in order to favour Turkish ambitions in the area,then i will kick your ass.

Edited by Spartakus - 10-Jun-2006 at 16:07

"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)

Kapikulu

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Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 15:56

Originally posted by Spartakus

If you look at the situation now, you can see there is nothing against any party.

Now is relevant.If by now you mean the 90's then you are wrong.If you mean now,after 2003 for example,then yes things have been imrpoved,due the possible entry of Turkey in EU.But that's all,a small improvement.

I didn't understand the relevance

Oppresion against the Kurdish population.

Yes, it can pose a threat...In case of your discussion,Pakistan with 150 mil. people can't pose a threat to India with 800 mil. people,so I find it silly. And also, nobody can deny the fact that the Greek jets are also involving in air corridor violations sometimes, like the Turkish jets...It is two-sided power display.

We do not have nuclear weaponry,like Pakistan.We can only wage a defensive war,not an aggresive one.And the Hellenic jets involve in air fights ,only because Turkish fighters have violated the Hellenic air space.

There wasn't in 90s, there was in 80s...If there are no limitations for any parties, how can that be a just "small" improvement?

In Istanbul or Ankara, Communist Party is probably the most active party with all those protests,demonstrations,slogans,papers.

One more time, those evil Turks, very bad boys,they do every bad while we are sitting down silently in our corner...

We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli

bg_turk

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Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 15:52

Originally posted by Spartakus

I just told you why the Muslims of Thrace where not treated well,because of the history of Hellas and because of the special place in which this minority is in.Whether you want to believe or not that's another issue.Apparently you can ask the 300.000 dead Hellens of WII,the 154.000 dead Hellens of the civil war,the thousands of Hellens exiled during the same periods,the exiled Hellens of the Hunta regime.

When you have a minority bounded by a treaty ,situated in the borders with a hostile neighbour like Turkey and has the same religion with it,then it's natural to treat it with a special manner.Now,if you do not undestand about politics ,then it is not my problem.And we discussed about what the minority's character is a bizzilion times.

There are no minorities in Macedonia.Only the Bulgars and the muslims ,who left after the Treaty of Neigy in 1919 and the Lausanne Treaty in 1923.If you are talking about FYROM,that's another historical issue which can only be discussed separately.Although,we have talked about it for a bizzilion times too.

We are not talking about history nor politics, we are talking about human and individual rights now at this present moment, not about people who have died decades ago but about people whose communal rights continue to be undermined even now as we speak.

I hereby state that I, bg_turk, fully, unconditionally and unreservedly accept the right of every Armenian, Rum, Kurd, Bosniak, Albanian within the boundaries of the Turkish Republic to refer to themselves as such and to preserve, practice and promote their culture, religion and language.

Do you accept the right of any Greek citizen to freely call themselves Turkish, Slavic Macedonian or Bulgarian, and to establish cultural organizations that carry the those names in order to promote their linguistic and culutral heritage? Yes or no? If yes, how do you comment on the recent ban on the Turkish Teachers Union in Xanthi?

I personally unequivocally condemn any recent or current harrasments of minorities in Turkey and to a lesser extent in Bulgaria.

I never painted Hellas as a shining craddle of democracy.But my State is far better than every other State in the Balkans.

these two sentences are an oximoron - the second is essentially the complete antidoe of the first.

In any case I am glad to be a Bulgarian citizen and I am confident that as such I enjoy far more rights than my fellow Turks that were unfortunate enough to be born in Greece, and to whom you continue to refer by the contrived name of Muslim Greeks. Greece is by far not better than Bulgaria with regard to minority rights.

Edited by bg_turk - 10-Jun-2006 at 16:00

Kapikulu

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Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 15:50

Originally posted by Spartakus

Do you know where that image is from?

I know what it shows,and in the end that is what is important,because it simplyis a mirror of what the person thinks.

I take that as a compliment, thanks

Judge people with their avatars, go on...And prove the obsessions showed in that brilliant Greek animation right

...

Edited by Kapikulu - 10-Jun-2006 at 15:57

We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli

Spartakus

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Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 15:35

I never painted Hellas as a shining craddle of democracy.But my State is far better than every other State in the Balkans.

"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)

bg_turk

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Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 15:18

To be honest I was expecting nothing but another meager attempt of an apologetic denial, Spartakus ... why cant you be a man enough and acknowledge that the refusal to grant the minorities in Thrace and Macedonia the right to identify themselves as Turkish or Slavic is wrong? Why is so hard to see the obvious and swallow your Greek pride?

This is why I am so critical of Greece ... because most of you Greeks in this forum are utterly and absolutely failing to be self-crtical (maybe the only exception is xristar) and if it wasnt for our criticism you'd probably paint your state as the shining craddle of democracy under the oblivious and indifferent eyes of your Western European allies.

Edited by bg_turk - 10-Jun-2006 at 15:19

Spartakus

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Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 15:09

If you look at the situation now, you can see there is nothing against any party.

I didn't understand the relevance

Oppresion against the Kurdish population.

"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)

Spartakus

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Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 15:00

Correct but that was not the point...

It is somewhat arrogant to demand the recognition of minorities in another country, and the complete opposite in your own. It is like littering the streets, while at the same time shouting at the top of your voice "Keep the streets clean!". Its a little bit inconsistent, isn't it?

I cannot help but conclude that your statements about the Kurds or any other minorities in Turkey do not stem from a genuine concern for their well being, but from a desire to score points against Turkey in favor of Greece. otherwise you would have supported the same for the minorities in Greece

I fully support all minority rights for Kurds and I am glad the Turkish state has recognized their right to refer to themselves as Kurds, and I hope it will go further in promoting their culture and language, and I strongly condemn any past and present assimilatory policy against peaceful citizens of Kurdish origin. Do you do the same for minorities in Greece?

The point is that in Hellas until the 90's, the only minority existed was the Muslim minority of Thrace.And that is what it is ,a Muslim minority according to the Lausanne treaty and according to reality.This minority was not treated well untill the 70's and 80's,it's true.But ,do not forget that until the 70's,Hellas was destroyed politically ,economically and socially:

1936-1940 Dictatorship of Metaxas

1940-1941 War against the Axis Forces

1941-1944 Harsh Axis Occupation

1944-1949 Civil War,thousands dead and exiled

1950-1967 Political instability ,the rightists ,winners of the civil war,hunt down leftists and exile them

1967-1974 Dictatorship of Hunta

The whole people suffered from poverty,political instability,ideoligical war.How can you expect that a minority would be treated in the best way,when the Hellen citizens themsleves had immense problems?And how do you expect to treat them well,when Turkey kicks the Hellenic minority out of Constantinople,invades in Cyprus,almost provocked war in the 1987?The specific minority is not an ordinary minority.It's a minority bounded by a treaty and in the borders with a hostile neighbour.Combine that with the whole economical,political,social situation of Hellas as described above,and then you will understand why.

Now,after the 90's ,many foreigners came to Hellas:from Asia,from the former Eastern Block, from Africa.But none of them could be considered a minority.Some of them were too few,some others like Albanians were just coming to Hellas in order to work,and left again back to their country.Another reason,is that foreigners started to organize only the last decade,like the Pakistanis.Another reason is that,there are already second generation immigrants,thus it's a matter or time that they will intergrade into the Hellenic society.It's not that simple.

And in the end,it's not arrogant to say what is the reality.We discuss about Turkish reality,not about Hellenic.

"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)

Kapikulu