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Best allies in Europe

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Best allies in Europe
    Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 17:48

Originally posted by Voyager

I said the oldest standing alliance. Hungary lost its independence in the early 16th century against the Ottomans, having latter been incorporated in the Austrian empire, only regaining its independence after WW1. As for Poland, it lost its independence in the 18th century after its partition between Austria, Prussia and Russia, only regaining it after WW1. So, as you can see there was not a standing alliance.

I agree with you. I also think that it is being overrated. Friendly words costs nothing but bring no effects.

"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote Voyager Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 05:31
Originally posted by Paul

well if you enter "anglo-portuguese 1294" in google you'll have 2000 sites to choose from.

Paul, thanks for your answer, but in 1294 there was a commercial treaty between Portugal and England. That is not the same as a formal alliance, which is the topic of this thread.



Edited by Voyager
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  Quote majkes1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 15:32

Also, I'd like to know what is your purpose with this topic. There were many alliances and friendships in Europe during and before the 11th century. Do you think that reclaiming a "priority" makes the Poles and Hungarians more special?

Thi is a very strange question.

I guess I was bored and decided to start this topic. I asked You to name other alliances in Europe and say something about it. You said about England and Portugal and I agree with this.

P.S. I'm just tring to prove my tesis. Isn't that what we all tring to do. Would be boring if we agree in everything. 

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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 07:33

1) Status of Hungary during Maria Theresa and his son.

In these times Hungary was a part of the Habsburg Empire. This was a dynastic empire made from a set of different states. Hungary was able to hold its constitution, legal system etc. De iure Hungary was an independent kingdom. De facto the central administration of the dynasty (not Austria) largely influenced domestic policy and completely ruled foreign policy.

Maria Theresa had a special status. He was a queen of Hungary, Bohemia and archduchess of Austria. He was not an empress of the Holy Roman Empire although she later married to the emperor. That's why she was usually refered as queen of Hungary, this was her primary title. (first partition) [By the way Spain did not stop to exist under Charles V.]

During his son Joseph the Hungarian constitution was suspended, and the country was incorporated to a unified administration. He tried to make one country from his countries. He failed. On his deathbed he had to abolish all of his decrees except the about the abolishment of  serfdom. (second partition)

2) Polish Hungarian relationship

During the last millenia it was various, but I dare say that it was more times good than bad. The main Polish interests lied in Eastern Europe while Hungary generally interested in the Balkans. I can remember only two wars. In the begining of the XI. century Boleslaus temporary captured some territories in Northern Hungary, an under king Mathias I there was a war for the possesion of Bohemia.

The countries shared common rulers two times: 1370-82 (a Hungarian), 1440-44 (a Pole).



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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 08:46
Originally posted by Raider

2) Polish Hungarian relationship

During the last millenia it was various, but I dare say that it was more times good than bad. The main Polish interests lied in Eastern Europe while Hungary generally interested in the Balkans. I can remember only two wars. In the begining of the XI. century Boleslaus temporary captured some territories in Northern Hungary, an under king Mathias I there was a war for the possesion of Bohemia.

The countries shared common rulers two times: 1370-82 (a Hungarian), 1440-44 (a Pole).

Do Hungarians still repeat the words coming from poem of Sandor Petofi:

Magyar es lengyel jo barat

Karddal s pohar kozt egyarant.

"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote majkes1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 15:30

During the last millenia it was various, but I dare say that it was more times good than bad. The main Polish interests lied in Eastern Europe while Hungary generally interested in the Balkans. I can remember only two wars. In the begining of the XI. century Boleslaus temporary captured some territories in Northern Hungary, an under king Mathias I there was a war for the possesion of Bohemia.

The countries shared common rulers two times: 1370-82 (a Hungarian), 1440-44 (a Pole).

There were also three invasions in XVII century. In 1620 we invaded Hungary and during swedish deluge Hungarians invaded Poland and our army answered by another invasion.

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 18:17
Originally posted by majkes1

There were also three invasions in XVII century. In 1620 we invaded Hungary and during swedish deluge Hungarians invaded Poland and our army answered by another invasion.

It were invasions against Transilvania, not against Hungary.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 19:55
Originally posted by Voyager

Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by Ikki

I think the alliance between England and Portugal is more closed, they had troubles, but was a relation very strong.


But it was a dependency relation: Portugal worked as a colony of England, even if it had its own colonies...

And your dear Basque Country is a colony of Castille.



Worst: we are not even a colony (economically the Basque Country is superior): we are the harbour and provide the capitalist class of Castile (along with Catalonia). It stinks!

But I would never say that Castile and Basque Country are or have been allies. They were allies only under Sancho III, who benefitted of the enemity between Castile and Leon and the lack of consolodiated power in both of them. But that was a very brief period.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 20:13
Originally posted by Raider

[By the way Spain did not stop to exist under Charles V.]



Not actually. Spain didn't exist yet in times of Charles V. Charles was:
  • Holy Roman Emperor
  • King of Germany
  • Archduke of Austria; Duke of Styria, Carinthia and Carniola; Count of Tyrol
  • King of Bohemia
  • King of Hungary
  • Duke of Milan
  • King of Naples and Sicily
  • King of Sardinia
  • King of Aragon, Valencia and Mallorca; Count of Barcelona
  • King of Castile and Leon, Count of Alava, Lord of Biscay
  • King of Navarre
  • Duke of Gelders, Brabant, Limburg, Luxemburg and Lothier; Count of Artois, Burgundy, Flanders, Hainaut, Holland, Namur, Zeeland and Zutphen
I may have missed some effective titles other than the ones mentioned. All these posessions were divided later among his son, Philip II, and his brother, Ferdinand I. Ferdinand kept the Austro-Hungarian posessions along with the Imperial title, while Philip kept the largest share, centered in Castile and Aragon, what he then started to call more or less oficially "Spain" a term that before him had only a geographical meaning (like Asia Minor or Scandinavia). Still some argue that there was no Spain properly speaking until the 18th century when the bourbons supressed the self-rule of the states of the Aragonese crown.


Edited by Maju

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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 03:06
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by majkes1

There were also three invasions in XVII century. In 1620 we invaded Hungary and during swedish deluge Hungarians invaded Poland and our army answered by another invasion.

It were invasions against Transilvania, not against Hungary.

In this case this is not really relevant. The relation of Hungary and Transylvania was clouded. (On purpose). For example Stefan Bathory titled himself the Hungarian king's voivod of Transylvania (until he was invited to the Polish throne).

Maju:

Charles V. never was the king of Hungary and Bohemia. His younger brother, Ferdinand was elected to king in both countries.

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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 03:07
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by majkes1

There were also three invasions in XVII century. In 1620 we invaded Hungary and during swedish deluge Hungarians invaded Poland and our army answered by another invasion.

It were invasions against Transilvania, not against Hungary.

In this case this is not really relevant. The relation of Hungary and Transylvania was clouded. (On purpose thanks for the triangle politics). For example Stefan Bathory titled himself the Hungarian king's voivod of Transylvania (until he was invited to the Polish throne).

Maju:

Charles V. never was the king of Hungary and Bohemia. His younger brother, Ferdinand was elected to king in both countries.



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  Quote majkes1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 15:03

It were invasions against Transilvania, not against Hungary.

Yes but iwas a Hungarian princedom.

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  Quote Sarmata Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 21:19
Kosciuszko was Polish, thats it- end of discussion.
As for the best relations its true Hungary and Poland shared the same rulers and friendly times, sometimes. But I would say that Lithuania and Poland had way closer ties then Poland-Hungary. And also Poland and Hungary did not only share the same king under Louis, let's not forget Wladyslaw III Warnenczyk, who led the last crusade against the Ottomans in 1443 with a huge help from Hungarian general Hunyadi. Although Louis was indeed disliked by Poles, especially for taking land from Poland and attaching it to Hungary, he was a half Pole half Hungarian, he was the nephew of the last King of Poland- Kazimierz III Wielki. I guess he felt more Hungarian than anything...or perhaps he focused more on Hungary because of the Turks.
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 02:39

Originally posted by Sarmata

Although Louis was indeed disliked by Poles, especially for taking land from Poland and attaching it to Hungary,...

I think you refered Red Ruthenia (Galich), which was a disputed territory. This question was settled only in 1355. Polish rule was recognized, but Hungary had the right to resume it if a son of Kazimierz would have been born.

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  Quote Maljkovic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 08:47
Originally posted by majkes1

On below picture You can see king of Poland Stefan Bathory and Russian delegation asking him for peace. This is during surrounding of Pskow by Polish Army. Stefan Bathory was Hungarian and is considered to be one of the best kings of Poland. Also Hungarians have a graet hero who was Polish and I've heard that some Hungarians even think he was a Hungarian. I mean of course Joseph Bem, called by Hungarians Daddy Bem or something like that. I think that Polish and Hungarians are exceptional example of very long 1000 years friendship in Europe's History. This friendship started in 11th century when Polish and Hungarians were fighting together against Roman Empire of German Nation and it lasted throughtought the history. Even if Poland and Hungarians were in opposite camps like during WWII there wasn't any hostility. I don't know other such examples in Europe History. Maybe Serbs and Greeks? What do You think about it and do You know others such allies, but I don't mean examples like Estonia and England friendship cause this countries are far away and didin't have any cause not to be friendly. I mean neighbours like Poland and Hungary  

 

Sure! Spain-Portugal, Norway-Sweden, Slovenia-Croatia, Romania-Bulgaria...

And you scratch Serbs and Greeks out, because Byzantine empire which was Greek was the worst enemy to the Serbs until the Otoman arrival.

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  Quote majkes1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 14:11

Sure! Spain-Portugal, Norway-Sweden, Slovenia-Croatia, Romania-Bulgaria...

And you scratch Serbs and Greeks out, because Byzantine empire which was Greek was the worst enemy to the Serbs until the Otoman arrival.

Ok, I just thought that they should like each other being Orthodox just like Polish and Austrians.

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  Quote Jay. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 21:15
I would say Serbia-Russian alliance is pretty awesome.
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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 05:06
Originally posted by majkes1

 Romania-Bulgaria...

I just cant remember when was that?
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  Quote Maljkovic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 05:51
Originally posted by Subotai

Originally posted by majkes1

 Romania-Bulgaria...

I just cant remember when was that?

Can you remember Bulgarian-Romanian wars? I can't.

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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 07:28
Hmm and guess who attack us, in the back, in 1913 while we were fighting greeks and serbs.And in WW1 Bulgaria was on Central powers side while Romania was on Entente side and we sucsesfuly invaded Romania back then.

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