Turks in the Mongol Horde

85 % of Kazakhs was formed from clean mongol tribes. Not Mongols was kangly (turkic), kypshaks (turkic) and koja (arabs - seids). Rashid-ad-din wrote that each Mongol knows own tribes. Each Kazakh also knows own tribes.

Now we shall actually analyze mongol tribes with names are nirun:

Today's Kazakh tribes - kiat [kiat-chanchiut, kiat- kuralas], duhlat, suhan, wusun [wisut], qataghan [katakin]

Today's Uzbek tribes - barlas, qataghan, mangyt, kiat

Today's Noghay tribes - mangyt, barin

Turkic osmanli, Turkic Toba, Turkis - Mongols - all of turkic clans.

All are turkic!

Bandy-legged Chono on a donkey � horse,  halhases are not mongols. You are sian-bi.

Hello Bektemir,

Back then it would not have mattered genetically who was turk or who was mongol. If the turkic and mongol tribes originally came from Mongolia, they were all the same genetically with just a different language (which is not all that much different if one thinks about it). Later on BOTH the original mongols and the original turks mixed with other people and then ALL of those mixed mogols outside mongolia became turkicized (the mixed turks were already turkic).  So, in my opinion the mongols and the turks were genetically the same people.  Timur was a turkicized mongol, but he might as well have been a mongolized turk...genetically it would not have made any difference.

People nowadays focus too much on the mixed population of Turkey in trying to imagine what the "typical turk" historically looked like. The people of turkey are probably the farthest away from the ancient turkic look as any turkic people can be.

Mustafa

Thanks "Justmongol",

That article just gives more support to what I have said all along.

Mustafa

This makes no sense whatsoever. Your idea that everybody from the same places have the exact same genetics, is even less coherent.

--Why does it not surprise me that things don't make sense to *YOU*? Haha..

--Nobody has the *exact* same genetics, even among the same people. Europeans are not all the same and neither are Germans or French among each other. But, they share more commonalities with each other to be considered members of the same group. The same applies to Mongols, Chinese and the few Turks left that have not mixed with anyone (and of course the original turkic population that came from Mongolia and Siberia).  You need to read more carefully my friend.

Mustafa

Mongol, Naiman, Keleit, Tatar, Ongud, Khitad were the largest tribes in the Mongolian steppe before Chinggis Khaan unified them as a nation. Usually, Naiman, Keleit and Ongud were considered as Turkic-speaking groups, while Tatar, Khitad and Mongol itself were considered as Mongolian-speaking groups. all of these tribes, regardless their origins, are the direct ancestors of today's Mongolians. Why was the nation's name of the Mongolians called "Mongolia" but not Naiman, Keleit etc? it's just because that it's the leader of Mongol tribe unified all tribes as a nation but not other tribes' leaders.

I don't understand what luke's question exactly means, if you mean how many Naiman, Keleit or Ongud generals severed in Mongol army? I think it's perhaps half of Mongolia's gerenals came from those tribes. but if you ask if there're some turkic generals from turkistan(central asia, not Mongolia, I mean) severed in Mongolia, I can give some message about them:

The most famous general from Turkistan or other territories outside Mongolia were Tutuha and his descendants such as Yan Timur whose ancestors were ever the royalty of Kipchak tribe in South russian steppe. Tutuha and his Kipchak troop play a very important role in Mongolia during Khubilai Khan defeated his brother Aribuga and other Mongol nobles, which gave Tutuha a chance to cellect his people to form a powerful tribe "Yungsiyebu" later in Mongolia. Allied with the Oghuz-originated Kharchin and the Alan-originated Asud, the Kipchaks comprised the great Yungsiyebu tumen of eastern Mongolia after Dayan khan(the successor of Khubilai Khan) reunified Mongolia. it's necessary to mention that Asud's tribe leader Alutai Taysi was ever the actual leader of eastern Mongolians, but he was eventually defeated by the Oirad or the western Mongolian's leader Esen Taysi and his people lost their power and fled to the west where they eventually was absorded by Yungsiyebu tribe, and, the Kharchin's leader Bolu taysi who was the succesor of Esen Taysi, continued to maintain the oirad's power in Mongolia.

Yungsiyebu tumen was defeated by Ligdan Khan(the last Mongol great Khan) of Chahar tumen during Manchu's conquest on Mongolia, some of its people was absorded by Chahar and Tumed tumen and some fled to the east where they absorded Duyan Uriankhai to form a new tribe named Kharchin.

Noboby know exactly which language those ancient tribes of Mongolia steppe speak except Chinggis Khaan's Mongol tribe itself because there were less vilad evidence leave today. But before Chinggis Khaan and his Mongol tribe rise to power, the ruling groups of Mongolia steppe were Tujue, then Uighur and Kyrgyz whose language were Turkic(the Proto_Mongolian speaking Khitans defeated Kyrgyz, but they didn't imgrated to all Mongolia steppe, most of them stay in today's southeastern Inner Mongolia and South Manchuria or imgrated to China after they established a conquered dynasty in Northern China) so it's reasonable to consider that there were at least half of the tribes in Mongolia were Turkic-speaking groups at that time. of course, it's not important at all that which languages those ancient tribes speak, we only know these tribes weren't dispeared but adapted the common national name of Mongolia and became the ancestors of today's Mongolia.

Many peolpe focus their attention on which tribes were Turkic or Mongolian speaking groups when they view Mongolia history, but it never be an important aspect to influence the history in reality. Chinggis Khaan didn't treat Uighurs or Ongud as enemies because they speak Turkic, and he didn't treat Tatars friendly after he conquered them because they also speak Mongolian(most probably). 

Today's Mongolians tend to neglect their turkic-originated ancestors and seem to view those ancient empires such as Tujue Khanate, Uighur Khanate, Kyrgyz Khanate as foreign dynasty in Mongolia, it's totally wrong. There were actually many tribes leave their homeland Mongolia to the west or the south, but it's impossible that all of them leave together when they lost their power in Mongolia, for example, after north Xiong-nu were defeated by Sian-bei, most of its people was absorded by Sian-bei but not all of them imgrated to the west. it's similar to the following history of Mongolia that the descendants of former empires became the peolpe of new empires. it never be a thing of displacing or being displaced but a thing of conquering or being conquered. History of Xiong-nu empire, Sian-bei empire, Ruran empire, Tujue Khanate, Uighur Khanate, etc, all were part of Mongolia history.  

What is this map??? Did you draw it or a european who thinks central asians are european without looking them even in a single picture???

Ok bud, can you explain what do the pink and dark blue colors represent??? I am really curious. Do you really believe that more than the half of Kyrgz arent Turkish or mongolic? Or do you really believe that Georgians and Azeris are  ssimilar... or the Svans are pure blooded caucasians but all of their neighbours are a mixture of world citizens

Please inform me about that...