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The United China

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Poll Question: Will China reunify?
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Dream208 View Drop Down
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  Quote Dream208 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The United China
    Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 12:49

To Forgotten:

Regardless how improper SinoDefender's personal opinion, I still can't understand why you use the Great Wall to denounce Chinese's courage? Does building a defense line make people less brave or less determined to protect their own land?

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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 13:12
Originally posted by Forgotten

Originally posted by Sino Defender

in my opinion, china should take back or incorporate the following regions:

priority:

1) taiwan

2) diaoyu tai islands

3) spratly islands

secondary:

1) russian far east (greater manchuria)

2) outer mongolia

3) singapore

 China maybe have some rights to "invade" taiwan but how you dare to claim greater manchuria , outer mongolia & singapore ! this is nonsense.

china have no rights to be there , the same goes to these occupied lands : Tibet , Eastern Turkistan "Uyghuristan" , Inner Mongolia , Gansu , Qinghai & Heilongjiang. 

if your people "hidden Army" are much more than the native people in singapore then that doesnt give you the rights to claim it ! and even if your country occupied it before.

using your logic today the so called china must goes back under the rule of the mongols.

and my answer to your silly poll is that china will be back to its normal border which is your so called great wall , just remember why your "brave" people built it , what a courage.

The Great Wall of China in 1907, as photographed by Herbert Ponting. Over the centuries, there had been a number of attempts to build some sort of fortification or earthworks along this route, but the wall that appears here was built during the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644).

While I think you may have points about Outer Mongolia and Singapore, I think you overstretch your argument, and fail to deliver anything other than an emotional outcry.

Gansu?  The last time I checked Gansu is predominately Han Chinese and had been since the early Han Empire.

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  Quote sinosword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 13:30
Originally posted by Forgotten

and my answer to your silly poll is that china will be back to its normal border which is your so called great wall , just remember why your "brave" people built it , what a courage.

how many times do i have to repeat? this wall was just used to prevent nomadic guerrilla. coz we had that long common border with nomads, their skirmishers often got into chinese territory to rob civiliances. it was always too late when our troops rushed to there, the nomads had escaped too fast. the same is that israel is building defence wall to deal with terrorists today, but this doesn't mean they are afraid of palestine.



Edited by sinosword
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  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 13:34

Mongolians are not ethnic Chinese why do think it should be part of China.

How about China stops occupying East Turkistan, Tibet Inner Mongolia. You have NO right over them, yet your greed makes you want more

Your excuse for taking lands such as Singapore is that they are ethnic Han, if that was the case let the majority of China free from han occupation



Edited by OSMANLI
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 14:13
Originally posted by Forgotten

and my answer to your silly poll is that china will be back to its normal border which is your so called great wall , just remember why your "brave" people built it , what a courage.

You can make your point without resorting to sarcastic/inflammatory remarks.

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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 17:04
Originally posted by OSMANLI

Mongolians are not ethnic Chinese why do think it should be part of China.

How about China stops occupying East Turkistan, Tibet Inner Mongolia. You have NO right over them, yet your greed makes you want more

Your excuse for taking lands such as Singapore is that they are ethnic Han, if that was the case let the majority of China free from han occupation

i think Snowbeagle gave an excellent definition:

Being Chinese is an ethnicity in Singapore.  Chinese is among many ethnicities - which also include British, Malay, Indonesian, etc -  being represented in Singapore, who are all Singaporean nationals.

Being Chinese is a nationality in China, not an ethnicity.  Various ethnicities, including Han, Mongol, Tibetan, Uyghur, Hui, Zhuang, etc, are all part of the Chinese nationality.

China has little excuse for claiming Singapore, but to say that Mongolians are not ethnic Chinese would not only be confusing, but also may offend ethnic Mongolians who are proud Chinese citizens.



Edited by poirot
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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 17:17
Originally posted by flyingzone

Originally posted by Sino Defender

i am 22. expressing my personal thought isn't a crime. it is far from reality but here is no reality.

Being young (but 22 isn't really THAT young) and idealistic is a good thing. But I'd rather see someone using one's youthful idealism and energy to to achieve social justice rather than dreaming to conquer foreign lands. You know in a way Poirot was right in saying that your thought is a little "retro". In this day and age, real prosperity does not depend on how much land a country holds. The world's richest countries are among the world's smallest. Those countries also rank the highest when it comes to egalitarianism, social conscience, international justice, and neutrality. A truly strong China should not be so narrowly defined by geography. It should depend on other qualities such as allowing its citizens to prosper, treating its citizens right, and treating other nations with respect. THAT is a country that demands respect from others.   

but when it comes to economic and political influence, those small countries are all off the league.

"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"
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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 17:19
Originally posted by snowybeagle

Originally posted by Sino Defender

Originally posted by snowybeagle

Since when has China any claim on Singapore? Singapore was not a colony nor settlement founded by China.

A country cannot reclaim or reunify territories it had never owned nor ruled in history.

China has not. It's just my personal thought. A country should not reclaim or reunify territories it has never owned nor ruled in history, but it definitely CAN!

Britain never owned India before it claimed it. America never owned California and Texas before it claimed it. The French never owned nor ruled Vietnam before it claimed it. The list goes on and on.

Before a country a reclaim something, it must lose it.

Before it can lose it, it must own it.

China can try to claim Singapore, but until it has owned and lost Singapore, it cannot reclaim or reunify with Singapore.

The only countries in the world today that can reclaim or reunify Singapore (if they so chooses to) would be

(1) Federation of Malaysia - Singapore was originally part of the Sultanate of Johor, which is today part of the Malaysian Federation.

(2) United Kingdom of the Great Britain - Singapore was a Crown Colony.

(3) Japan - which conquered and occupied Singapore from 1942-1945.

(4) Republic of Indonesia - based on some ancient maritime kingdom of long ago which claimed the entire Riau archipelago and southern parts of peninsular Malaysia.

What you think as your personal thought is entirely up to you, but the words reclaim and reunify have definite meanings which personal thoughts cannot change.

if you read carefully, the words "reunify" and "reclaim" weren't used on singapore.

"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"
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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 17:23
Originally posted by Forgotten

Originally posted by Sino Defender

in my opinion, china should take back or incorporate the following regions:

priority:

1) taiwan

2) diaoyu tai islands

3) spratly islands

secondary:

1) russian far east (greater manchuria)

2) outer mongolia

3) singapore

 China maybe have some rights to "invade" taiwan but how you dare to claim greater manchuria , outer mongolia & singapore ! this is nonsense.

china have no rights to be there , the same goes to these occupied lands : Tibet , Eastern Turkistan "Uyghuristan" , Inner Mongolia , Gansu , Qinghai & Heilongjiang. 

if your people "hidden Army" are much more than the native people in singapore then that doesnt give you the rights to claim it ! and even if your country occupied it before.

using your logic today the so called china must goes back under the rule of the mongols.

and my answer to your silly poll is that china will be back to its normal border which is your so called great wall , just remember why your "brave" people built it , what a courage.

The Great Wall of China in 1907, as photographed by Herbert Ponting. Over the centuries, there had been a number of attempts to build some sort of fortification or earthworks along this route, but the wall that appears here was built during the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644).

i agree that your logic could be right to a certain extent. but before you force it on me, i would have to require you to force it on yourself first. based upon your rightfulness and morality, the united states should not even exist, and the land should be returned to the native americans. neither should australia, new zealand and  a dozen countries and regions.

"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 18:18
Originally posted by Sino Defender

but when it comes to economic and political influence, those small countries are all off the league.

Personally I'd rather live in a country that takes good care of its citizens, that treats its citizens fair and right, and that offers to HELP other countries in need than one that tries to "exert" influence in the economic and political scenes and that has aggressive expansionist policies, but can't even feed its citizens and has huge income and regional disparities within its border.

Even though countries like Norway, Sweden, Iceland, the Netherlands, etc. are small, the respect they've earned from the international community is no less than that of any so-called "powers". These countries are countries that set the records for the whole world in human rights, in egalitarianism, and in social progressivism.

I would  like to see a Chinese person being proud of his or her nationality because of China being a benevolent rather than a belligerent country.  

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  Quote Dream208 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 18:40

To Flyingzone:

I agreeed with your last part, once the issue across the strait settled, it will be time for the way of "king" () rather than the way of "conqueror" (Q).

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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 19:18
Originally posted by flyingzone

Originally posted by Sino Defender

but when it comes to economic and political influence, those small countries are all off the league.

Personally I'd rather live in a country that takes good care of its citizens, that treats its citizens fair and right, and that offers to HELP other countries in need than one that tries to "exert" influence in the economic and political scenes and that has aggressive expansionist policies, but can't even feed its citizens and has huge income and regional disparities within its border.

Even though countries like Norway, Sweden, Iceland, the Netherlands, etc. are small, the respect they've earned from the international community is no less than that of any so-called "powers". These countries are countries that set the records for the whole world in human rights, in egalitarianism, and in social progressivism.

I would  like to see a Chinese person being proud of his or her nationality because of China being a benevolent rather than a belligerent country.  

i doubt you would have the same personal preference when you know all these countries you mentioned have an income tax rate of 50 percent.

plus, netherland isn't one of the countries that fall into your standard of benevolence. it also practiced imperialism. indonesia was part of the dutch oversea empire. the only developed countries that are not part of or have never practiced imperialism are switzerland and sweden. and that's about it. 50 percent tax rate, no super rich but mostly middle class.



Edited by Sino Defender
"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 23:35
Originally posted by Sino Defender

i doubt you would have the same personal preference when you know all these countries you mentioned have an income tax rate of 50 percent.

plus, netherland isn't one of the countries that fall into your standard of benevolence. it also practiced imperialism. indonesia was part of the dutch oversea empire. the only developed countries that are not part of or have never practiced imperialism are switzerland and sweden. and that's about it. 50 percent tax rate, no super rich but mostly middle class.

Perhaps you seldom read my other posts and do not know my stand on social policies. I am all for income redistribution and generous social programmes.

It seems you have a preference for a skewed income distribution with a small % of super-rich controlling the bulk of a country's wealth. That's fine. It's your preference. Cannot dispute with someone's preference. In any case, it seems this is the direction that China is heading anyway, so this will probably make you happy.

Countries that are socially progressive today do not necessarily have the most glorious past. (FYI, Sweden WAS an imperial power too, but its expansionist ambition was somewhat confined to Northern Europe e.g. Finland). When I talk about benevolence and social progressivism, I always refer to issues such as gender equality, minority rights, environmental awareness, socfal justice, things that may not be of too much of importance to you given your fixation on territorial expansion, political and economic dominance, and military might.

The Nordic countries and the Low countries consistently spend a much larger proportion of their GDP on foreign aid than most other countries. And ever since the end of the era of Imperialism, these countries have essentially been engaging in extremely peaceful foreign policies.

In exalting the Nordic and the Low countries as "exemplary countries", I am not trying to (1) assert that these countries are "perfect" - no country is and (2) I am also not tryting to give any excuse for their imperialist past, but again, which country does not have a skeleton hidden in its historical closet? But I think, if I may say, a difference between you and I is that I have very little inclination to engage in national or cultural chauvinism of any kind whereas your world view is almost entirely dominated by your sinocentricism. I have no qualms about criticizing Canada and pointing out its shameful past, e.g. its treatment of the Native People, its past racist immigration policies, etc.

Sino Defender, it is one thing to love your country, it is another to do it the way you do. One of the most destructive forces in human history is the adherence to any kind of extreme "ism". Remember why you harbour so much hatred towards the Japanese nation? It's because of their brutal and shameful invasion of China. And how did that happen? It all probably started with someone with extreme nationalist and militaristic views, not unlike yours, ascended to power and had their personal agenda turned into the national agenda. What a horror that it had created!!!! Do you really want history to repeat itself, only this time it's China being the creator of those horrors?

   

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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 23:42
Originally posted by flyingzone

Originally posted by Sino Defender

i doubt you would have the same personal preference when you know all these countries you mentioned have an income tax rate of 50 percent.

plus, netherland isn't one of the countries that fall into your standard of benevolence. it also practiced imperialism. indonesia was part of the dutch oversea empire. the only developed countries that are not part of or have never practiced imperialism are switzerland and sweden. and that's about it. 50 percent tax rate, no super rich but mostly middle class.

Perhaps you seldom read my other posts and do not know my stand on social policies. I am all for income redistribution and generous social programmes.

It seems you have a preference for a skewed income distribution with a small % of super-rich controlling the bulk of a country's wealth. That's fine. It's your preference. Cannot dispute with someone's preference. In any case, it seems this is the direction that China is heading anyway, so this will probably make you happy.

Countries that are socially progressive today do not necessarily have the most glorious past. (FYI, Sweden WAS an imperial power too, but its expansionist ambition was somewhat confined to Northern Europe e.g. Finland). When I talk about benevolence and social progressivism, I always refer to issues such as gender equality, minority rights, environmental awareness, socfal justice, things that may not be of too much of importance to you given your fixation on territorial expansion, political and economic dominance, and military might.

The Nordic countries and the Low countries consistently spend a much larger proportion of their GDP on foreign aid than most other countries. And ever since the end of the era of Imperialism, these countries have essentially been engaging in extremely peaceful foreign policies.

In exalting the Nordic and the Low countries as "exemplary countries", I am not trying to (1) assert that these countries are "perfect" - no country is and (2) I am also not tryting to give any excuse for their imperialist past, but again, which country does not have a skeleton hidden in its historical closet? But I think, if I may say, a difference between you and I is that I have very little inclination to engage in national or cultural chauvinism of any kind whereas your world view is almost entirely dominated by your sinocentricism. I have no qualms about criticizing Canada and pointing out its shameful past, e.g. its treatment of the Native People, its past racist immigration policies, etc.

Sino Defender, it is one thing to love your country, it is another to do it the way you do. One of the most destructive forces in human history is the adherence to any kind of extreme "ism". Remember why you harbour so much hatred towards the Japanese nation? It's because of their brutal and shameful invasion of China. And how did that happen? It all probably started with someone with extreme nationalist and militaristic views, not unlike yours, ascended to power and had their personal agenda turned into the national agenda. What a horror that it had created!!!! Do you really want history to repeat itself, only this time it's China being the creator of those horrors?

   

perhaps, you don't know much about economics. big governments usually result in worse economic performance. an ideal society is a free economy with a very low tax rate. just let the people do whatever, and the economy will prosper. having a high tax rate to try to take care of people usually makes the economy worse off. a truly rich society is a society with a number of big rich and a great number of middle class. not a boring economy with all middle class and no real entrepreneur spirit.

"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"
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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 23:43
i am glad that you know the european economy was developed based upon imperialism.
"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 00:01
Originally posted by Sino Defender

perhaps, you don't know much about economics. big governments usually result in worse economic performance. an ideal society is a free economy with a very low tax rate. just let the people do whatever, and the economy will prosper. having a high tax rate to try to take care of people usually makes the economy worse off. a truly rich society is a society with a number of big rich and a great number of middle class. not a boring economy with all middle class and no real entrepreneur spirit.

Originally posted by Sino Defender

i am glad that you know the european economy was developed based upon imperialism.

I actually find your assumption of me being ignorant about such basic economics and basic historical facts kind of cute  .  When I was 22, I also assumed I knew a lot, or at least more than everyone around me.

 

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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 09:27

Originally posted by Sino Defender

if you read carefully, the words "reunify" and "reclaim" weren't used on singapore.

Take back has the same meaning as reclaim.

In any case, you have not shown what has Singapore got to do China?

If flimsy grounds are good enough, why not go for California or the United States?

After all, there's some proposal that the Chinese "discovered" American way before the Columbus.

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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 13:44
Originally posted by snowybeagle

Originally posted by Sino Defender

if you read carefully, the words "reunify" and "reclaim" weren't used on singapore.

Take back has the same meaning as reclaim.

In any case, you have not shown what has Singapore got to do China?

If flimsy grounds are good enough, why not go for California or the United States?

After all, there's some proposal that the Chinese "discovered" American way before the Columbus.

the word "take back" wasn't used on singapore. "incorporated" was the word used on singapore, and i didn't mean militarily incorporated.

"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 02:15
Sino Defender,

Singapore (aswell as Tawain) are very successful countries in their own right. There is nothing beijing can offer them that they cant already provide for themselves.

The taking of the spratly's or the south china sea will only flag to the asean countries & australia that a expansionist agressive policy will be pursued by beijings rulers and hence they will arm up. It will only marginalise the PRC in the region.

Talk of grabing russian far east, and mongolia is simply imperialist and inflamatory. There is talk that bejings eyes the resources to its north (and in central Asia) but russia is no light weight and your fanatsies can only mean war at a massive scale in reality.

as far as im concerned chinese rule in sinkiang, yunnan, nei mongol or any tibetan province was to the benefit of the chinese not the locals. So they have every right to resist beijings rule.

Imperialism in all forms, either from the west or east is abhorant and should be resisted by all of us.



Edited by Leonidas
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 02:20
Originally posted by OSMANLI

Mongolians are not ethnic Chinese why do think it should be part of China.

How about China stops occupying East Turkistan, Tibet Inner Mongolia. You have NO right over them, yet your greed makes you want more

Your excuse for taking lands such as Singapore is that they are ethnic Han, if that was the case let the majority of China free from han occupation



Osmanli makes a very good point, if you use ethnicity as an excuse for expansion . That would mean the PRC itself has to be defined along ethnic lines. Which inturn means that ethnic non han areas are no longer chinese by right. You cant have it both ways.

There is a total difference between ethnic identity and citizenship.



Edited by Leonidas
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