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Trinity what is your doctrine

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Poll Question: Christians please only what do you really believe?
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Trinity what is your doctrine
    Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 17:35
I would like only the views of Christians about what the Trinity is:
They can be Prostestant, Orthodox, Catholic, Mormon, JW, coptic, moonies, or any Christian related faith But!!!
Please make your posts factual and not just your opinion.
If you grew up as a Christian but no longer believe it then that is fine but please no opinion- what is your church doctrine on the Trinity????
Please Christians and exChristian only!!

your own words and no cut and pastes - I don't have time to read them

Edited by eaglecap
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 18:21

As a Protestant (Southern Baptist to be exact), I believe that God reveals Himself through the three persons of the Trinity - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  Each person of the Trinity has its own significant attributes but are united in terms of essence and nature. 

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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 18:56
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

As a Protestant (Southern Baptist to be exact), I believe that God reveals Himself through the three persons of the Trinity - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each person of the Trinity has its own significant attributes but are united in terms of essence and nature.



B-emp could you elaborate some more and I would love to hear orhtodox doctrine as well.
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 08:40
As a Pantheist (and therefore Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist and whatever you want), I say it is a superstition...

... but God is a superstition as well.

I think that all Christians are idolatres because they take a book as if it was God, which is outmostly blaspheme.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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  Quote Le Renard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 09:24

As a member of the LDS Church We believe in God the Eternal Father and in his son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost.  They are three seperate beings who are united in objective and spirit.   To help validate what I say read Matthew 3:16-17:

16) And Jesus, when he was abaptized, went up bstraightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the cSpirit of God descending like a ddove, and lighting upon him: 17) <>document.write(drawVerse(17,72987)); And lo a avoice from heaven, saying, This is my bbeloved cSon, in whom I am well pleased.

Jesus Christ, baptised; Holy Ghost, decended; Heavenly Father, vocie from heaven.  -- we get three seperate members of the Godhead

 

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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 12:10

I was raised a Catholic, and I was taught basically the same: the Holy Trinity(Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and that the Bible was divinely inspired by God.


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  Quote arsenka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 12:52

I think that all Christians are idolatres because they take a book as if it was God, which is outmostly blaspheme.

It's a little bit primitive point of view,Maju. Christians differ. As well as Muslim do, and Pantheists and so on and so on. For ex. I consider myself Christian as  1-I was baptized in childhood and  2-(the MOST important)- as I consciously accept Christian moral and rules of human coexistance .           ;           ;           ;           ;           ;           ;           ;           ;        I've never considered Bible to be God or even pure transcription of his words. Bible is a book written in certain time and place, and plenty of times rewritten since then (those who rewrote it were simple human beings BTW)

 "but God is a superstition as well." - I'd express it in different way: any image of God is human mind's creation. Saying nothing about particularities. Particularities just don't matter. Even if anybody proved that Christ had never existed I don't think I'd turn Christian moral down. The sence of Christianity is in its human spirit and not in details. I deeply believe in invaluableness of life of ANY human being, I believe in Love,Hope and Mercy as crucial points in treating other people, I believe in human responsibility for the world in which we live.         & nbsp;         & nbsp;        It's a little bit non-orthodoxal point of view,I know; it's mixed with philosophy and doesn't suit any branch of Christian religion. Well, that's my Christianity as I see it. To its PROs I can say that it has never contradicted any other religion or scientific imagination.

 Oh! Sorry, it's not only mine - I know a lot of people who share my views.

Maybe we are some sort of heretics?

"Please make your posts factual and not just your opinion." - I apologize greatly, Eaglecap, but I really don't know how to back factually the abstract things I'm speaking about.

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  Quote Theophos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 14:24
Of course, I believe in the Triune God: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
 
In spite of being a controversial view even amongst christians, the Bible and Jesus Himself point in that direction. Though it might be too of an abstract concept for some, I believe in these three Persons of the Trinity as the whole one God. Just like tree beams of the sun - they are beams, but they are the sun as well. They are all of the same substance. Therefore, God is always God and always One, although manifest in three Persons.
 
This is a central doctrine and tenet of all Christian Churches - Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant.
"I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me."
--John 14:6
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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 15:48
     I can be considered Christian because:
     1. I was baptized in the Armenian Apostolic Church.
     2. I agree with basically all fundamental morals of Christianity (with some minor exceptions).

     However, I do not believe Jesus was the son of God, only a prophet (if I was to believe that he actually spoke to God, which is too abstract for me to be sure about...because depending on the definition, I have also spoken to God...you know what I mean?). I do not read the Bible or attend church. I think the Bible itself and the institution of the church are the greatest bastardizations of the teachings of Jesus (and if this is what Jesus wanted, then count me out ). I believe that one's faith should be kept private.

     One can say that I feel the same way towards Islam and Judaism (respecting the faiths but loathing their institutions). I also can be seen as an animist because I believe that spirits can transcend their bodily entrapment. Do I mean to say that one day I will meet my loved ones after death? No, I have serious doubts about an afterlife. Its more along the lines of believing that spirits are constituted of energy, and when the person dies (maybe while they are still alive?) then that energy becomes dispersed from their body and takes another form, or simply flickers into oblivion. I believe everything is One. I believe in reincarnation as much and if not more than I believe in an afterlife. So my beliefs are kind of like Christian/Islamic/Jewish morals with some Buddhist, Pagan and Animist elements thrown in the mix (I especially appreciate Buddha's 4 noble truths and the eightfold path). I particularly like Buddhism, and its the religion I am most sympathetic towards. Mainly because its the most practical and realistic of the religions (to me), but it is still able to retain elements of deep spirituality, which I appreciate.

     I have no problem accepting that all my beliefs can be wrong. This is simply what I lean towards, and maybe I'll have a different outlook next month. Who knows.

     As for the Trinity... I believe its just another form of Paganism. If you believe there is a God, Satan, Virgin Mary, Jesus.....thats already 4 supernatural beings that are recognized by the same religion (same thing with the father, son and holy ghost). Doesn't get more Pagan than that. Not that theres anything wrong with being Pagan (I have a friend who is Pagan), but its pretty ironic considering Christianity waged so many crusades against Paganism only to become a Pagan religion itself. You see why I can't stand the hypocrisy of the institutions of religion?

Originally posted by arsenka

"Please make your posts factual and not just your opinion." - I apologize greatly, Eaglecap, but I really don't know how to back factually the abstract things I'm speaking about.


Ditto, eaglecap. Religion itself is an abstract entity.

Edited by ArmenianSurvival
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 19:16

Originally posted by Maju

I think that all Christians are idolatres because they take a book as if it was God, which is outmostly blaspheme.

What is that supposed to mean?  You must have encountered some pretty strange "Christians" if that is the impression you got!

I would never worship the Bible itself as God or as a manifestation of God.  This would be idolatry and a violation of the first and the second commandment.  It is quite absurd to even think of Christian worshiping a book if you ask me. 

The apostle John speaks of Christ himself as being the actual divine Word of God (in Greek, the divine Logos).  As a Protestant Christian, I worship God through Christ, who has saved me from my sins.  Because Christ is the Logos of God, it does not mean I worship a book.

As for the Scriptures, I do believe that it was written through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and that it is infallible.  However, this does not call for me actually worshiping the book.  The Scriptures are to be used as divine instruction.  They contain God's message of salvation.  To be saved, though, involves a personal decision and commitment to a relationship, not mere worship.

Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

As for the Trinity... I believe its just another form of Paganism. If you believe there is a God, Satan, Virgin Mary, Jesus.....thats already 4 supernatural beings that are recognized by the same religion (same thing with the father, son and holy ghost). Doesn't get more Pagan than that. Not that theres anything wrong with being Pagan (I have a friend who is Pagan), but its pretty ironic considering Christianity waged so many crusades against Paganism only to become a Pagan religion itself. You see why I can't stand the hypocrisy of the institutions of religion?

No I do not see and I also do not understand what in the world you mean here!



Edited by Byzantine Emperor
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 19:48
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

As for the Trinity... I believe its just another form of Paganism. If you believe there is a God, Satan, Virgin Mary, Jesus.....thats already 4 supernatural beings that are recognized by the same religion (same thing with the father, son and holy ghost). Doesn't get more Pagan than that. Not that theres anything wrong with being Pagan (I have a friend who is Pagan), but its pretty ironic considering Christianity waged so many crusades against Paganism only to become a Pagan religion itself. You see why I can't stand the hypocrisy of the institutions of religion?

lol, thats what a muslim would've said.
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 22:03

Originally posted by Maju

As a Pantheist (and therefore Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist and whatever you want), I say it is a superstition...

... but God is a superstition as well.

I think antagonistic comments like the above are usefull in society because they create debate. But their usefullness is limited to just that. Pantheism is the belief that everything is god. ie a shoestring, used toilet paper, nitric acid, a golf player. A pantheist does not belong to any religion, let alone five/six different ones. He reduces GOD to E=mc2 and thats it.

Originally posted by Maju

I think that all Christians are idolatres because they take a book as if it was God, which is outmostly blaspheme.

WHAT UTTER NONSENSE!!! and U call them idolaters for all the wrong reason.

Christianity is most alike in belief to Hinduism.

For majority of Hindus believe that their many gods are a manifestation of the one supreme GOD. A bit like trinity. The pagan idolaters of Arabia were no different.

The most succinct description of GOD that i have heard is one given by the aborigines.  Adnatu, is the name of their supreme being and it means the one without an anus.

For all its bruteness is is a very developed concept. For what they r saying is that we don't know what he looks like but we do know that he is not an organic entity. He is free of tiredness and needs, he is not hungry, miserable, a god that sleeps, a god that fathers sons and daughters. So there is nothing like unto him.

The aborigines may be the first to a express a monotheistic  belief. I am intrigued to know what the rig veda says, maybe in a different topic

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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 23:05

Originally posted by eaglecap

If you grew up as a Christian but no longer believe it then that is fine but please no opinion- what is your church doctrine on the Trinity????
Please Christians and exChristian only!!

Since this post contains mixed messages, I am not sure if I, an ex-Christian, could express my opinion or not because you also mention that "if you grew up as a Christian but no longer believe it then that is fine but please no opinion" ....

Now that I am an atheist, I wil call that superstition.

However, even when I was an extremely devout Christian (under the influence of my Anglican dad and Baptist mom), the "holy trinity" was one of the Christian doctrines that I felt the most uncomfortable with for several reasons: (1) the bible never directly mentions it - all the so-called quotes and references are indirect; one would think if it is such an important aspect of the Christian teaching, the bible should be very clear about it; (2) the very fact that this doctrine had to be "reaffirmed" by some creeds of some councils only reinforced my deep suspicion of this concept; (3) the very evident "pagan" origin of the concept of the "holy trinity".

In fact so many things about Christianity (even the very compilation of the so-called bible) are "artificially" decided and/or fabricated by some men (in the name of some "council" or some "creed") that I have eventually lost all my faith in it. Of course that's on top of everything else.   

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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 23:53

Originally posted by flyingzone

(1) the bible never directly mentions it - all the so-called quotes and references are indirect; one would think if it is such an important aspect of the Christian teaching, the bible should be very clear about it;

I don't think the actual words "Holy Trinity" actually appear in the Greek New Testament; nevertheless, the concept is definitely present.  God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all mentioned in separate incidents and their attributes are elucidated.  In the great commission at the end of the Gospel of Matthew, Christ himself tells the apostles to "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (poreuthentes oun matheteusate panta ta ethne, baptizontes autous eis to onoma tou patros kai tou uiou kai tou hagiou pneumatos) (Matthew 28:19).

In fact so many things about Christianity (even the very compilation of the so-called bible) are "artificially" decided and/or fabricated by some men (in the name of some "council" or some "creed") that I have eventually lost all my faith in it. Of course that's on top of everything else.

If the things you are talking about are in the Scriptures, I would very much like to see you prove it.  Have you ever examined Greek manuscripts of the text or read the New Testament in the original language?  I was a believing Christian before I learned to read ancient Greek; after I learned, it only served to increase the firmness of my faith.  You might think differently if you could study those manuscripts and learn to appreciate the facility of the language to convey the concepts of the faith.

As for all this comparison of the Trinity to pagan ideas, I really do not see any religious syncretism here.  Maybe I can see similarities in the tendency of Catholics and Orthodox to put so much emphasis on the place of Mary and her perpetual virginity and post-partum sinlessness. 



Edited by Byzantine Emperor
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 00:07
I found this Protestant view by Dr. Norm Gieslar. I read a book on Islam by him and one about logic. I could not finish the logic one- brain exploded-
Forgive me for not maintianing my own rule no cut and paste - bad eaglecap!!! lol
by Dr. Norman Geisler


Trinity simply means "triunity." God is not a simple unity; there is plurality in his unity. The Trinity is one of the great mysteries of the Christian Faith. Unlike an antinomy or paradox, which is a logical contradiction, the Trinity goes beyond reason but not against reason. It is known only by divine revelation, so the Trinity is not the subject of natural theology but of revelation.

The Basis for the Trinity.

While the word Trinity does not occur there, the concept is clearly taught in the Bible. The logic of the doctrine of the Trinity is simple. Two biblical truths are evident in Scripture, the logical conclusion of which is the Trinity:

1. There is one God.

2. There are three distinct persons who are God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

One God. The central teaching of Judaism called the Shema proclaims: "Hear, 0 Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one" (Deut. 6:4). When Jesus was asked the question, "What is the greatest commandment?" he prefaced the answer by quoting the Shema (Mark 12:29). In spite of his strong teaching on the deity of Christ (cf. Col. 2:9), the apostle Paul said emphatically, "there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live" (1 Cor. 8:6a). From beginning to end, the Scriptures speak of one God and label all other gods as false (Exod. 20:3; 1 Cor. 8:5-6).

The Bible also recognizes a plurality of persons in God. Although the doctrine of the Trinity is not as explicit in the Old Testament as the New Testament, nonetheless, there are passages where members of the Godhead are distinguished. At times they even speak to one another (see Ps. 110:1).

The Father Is God. Throughout Scripture God is said to be a Father. Jesus taught his disciples to pray, "Our Father in heaven" (Matt. 6:9). God is not only "our heavenly Father" (Matt. 6:32) but the "Father of our spirits" (Heb. 12:9). As God, he is the object of worship. Jesus told the woman of Samaria, "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshippers the Father seeks" (John 4:23). God is not only called "our Father" (Rom. 1:7) many times but also "the Father" (John 5:45; 6:27). He is also called "God and Father" (2 Cor. 1:3). Paul proclaimed that "there is but one God, the Father" (I Cor. 8:6). Additionally, God is referred to as the "Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 15:6). Indeed, the Father and the Son are often related by these very names in the same verse (Matt. 11:27; 1 John 2:22).

The Son Is God. The deity of Christ is treated [in a future article] in the section on attacks on the Trinity and more extensively in Bakers Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics in an article entitled Christ, Deity of. As a broad overview it should he noted that:

Jesus claimed to be Yahweh God. YHWH, translated in some versions Jehovah, was the special name of God revealed to Moses in Exodus 3:14, when God said, "I AM WHO I AM." In John 8:58, Jesus declares: "Before Abraham was born, I am." This statement claims not only existence before Abraham, but equality with the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. The Jews around him clearly understood his meaning and picked up stones to kill him for blaspheming (see Mark 14:62; John 8:58; 10:31-33; 18:5-6). Jesus also said, "I am the first and the last (Rev. 2:8).

Jesus took the glory of God. Isaiah wrote, "I am the LORD [Yahweh], that is my name! I will not give my glory to another; or my praise to idols" (42:8) and, "This is what the LORD [Yahweh] says . . . I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God" (44:6). Likewise, Jesus prayed, "Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began" (John 17:5). But Yahweh had said he would not give his glory to another.

While the Old Testament forbids giving worship to anyone other than God (Exod. 20:1-4; Deut. 5:6-9), Jesus accepted worship (Matt. 8:2; 14:33; 15:25; 20:20; 28:17; Mark 5:6). The disciples attributed to him titles the Old Testament reserved for God, such as, "the first and the last" (Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13), "the true light" (John 1:9), "the "rock" or "stone" (1 Cor. 10:4; 1 Peter 2:6-8; cf. Ps. 18:2; 95:1), the "bridegroom" (Eph. 5:28-33; Rev. 21:2), "the chief Shepherd" (I Peter 5:4), and "the great shepherd" (Heb. 13:20). They attributed to Jesus the divine activities of creating (John 1:3; Col. 1:15-16), redeeming (Hosea 13:14; Ps. 130:7), forgiving (Acts 5:31; Col. 3:13; cf. Ps. 130:4; Jer: 31:34), and judging (John 5:27). They used titles of deity for Jesus. Thomas declared: "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28). Paul calls Jesus the one in whom "the fullness of deity dwells bodily" (Col. 2:9). In Titus, Jesus is called, "our great God and savior" (2:13), and the writer to the Hebrews says of him, "Thy throne, 0 God, is forever" (Heb. 1:8). Paul says that, before Christ existed as a human being, he existed as God (Phil. 2:5-8). Hebrews 1:3 says that Christ reflects Gods glory, bears the stamp of his nature, and upholds the universe. The prologue to Johns Gospel also minces no words, stating, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word [Jesus] was God" (John 1:1).

Jesus claimed equality with God in other ways. He claimed the prerogatives of God. He claimed to be Judge of all (Matt. 25:31-46; John 5:27-30), but Joel quotes Yahweh as saying, "for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side" (Joel 3:12). He said to a paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven" (Mark 2:5b). The scribes correctly responded, "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (vs. 7b). Jesus claimed the power to raise and judge the dead, a power which only God possesses (John 5:21, 29). But the Old Testament clearly taught that only God was the giver of life (Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6) and the one to raise the dead (Psa. 71:20).

Jesus claimed the honor due God, saying, "He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him" (John 5:23b). The Jews listening knew that no one should claim to be equal with God in this way and again they reached for stones (John 5:18). When asked at his Jewish trial, "Are you the Christ (Messiah), the Son of the Blessed One?" Jesus responded, "I am, and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven" (Mark 14:61b-62).

The Holy Spirit Is God. The same revelation from God that declares Christ to be the Son of God also mentions another member of the triunity of God called the Spirit of God, or Holy Spirit. He too is equally God with the Father and the Son, and he too is a distinct person.

The Holy Spirit is called "God" (Acts 5:3-4). He possesses the attributes of deity, such as omnipresence (cf. Ps. 139:7-12) and omniscience (1 Cor. 2:10, 11). He is associated with God the Father in creation (Gen. 1:2). He is involved with other members of the Godhead in the work of redemption (John 3:5-6; Rom. 8:9-17, 27; Titus 3:5-7). He is associated with other members of the Trinity under the "name" of God (Matt. 28:18-20). Finally, the Holy Spirit appears, along with the Father and Son, in New Testament benedictions (for example, 2 Cor. 13:14).

Not only does the Holy Spirit possess deity but he also has a differentiated personality. That he is a distinct person is clear in that Scripture refers to "him" with personal pronouns (John 14:26; 16:13). Second, he does things only persons can do, such as teach (John 14:26; 1 John 2:27), convict of sin (John 16:7-11), and be grieved by sin (Eph. 4:30). Finally, the Holy Spirit has intellect (I Cor. 2:10,11), will (1 Cor. 12:11), and feeling (Eph. 4:30).

That the three members of the Trinity are distinct persons is clear in that each is mentioned in distinction from the others. The Son prayed to the Father (cf. John 17). The Father spoke from heaven about the Son at his baptism (Matt. 3:15-17). Indeed, the Holy Spirit was present at the same time, revealing that they coexist. Further, the fact that they have separate titles (Father, Son, and Spirit) indicate they are not one person. Also, each member of the Trinity has special functions that help us to identify them. For example, the Father planned salvation (John 3:16; Eph. 1:4); the Son accomplished it on the cross (John 17:4; 19:30; Heb. 1:1-2) and at the resurrection (Rom. 4:25; 1 Cor. 15:1-6), and the Holy Spirit applies it to the lives of the believers (John 3:5; Eph. 4:30; Titus 3:5-7). The Son submits to the Father (1 Cor. 11:3; 15:28), and the Holy Spirit glorifies the Son (John 16:14).

(to be continued)


Theological Dictionary
Authors

Dr. Randall Price
Dr. Steve Sullivan
Dr. Norm Geisler


Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 00:48
I have one question. The bible was compiled in 325 AD in the Council of Nicea which was chaired by the Emperor Constantine who never truely converted to christianity just joined it as a pagan would join the temple or jupitor. How can you be sure that the bible is authentic? There seem to be two points to make,
a) How can you be sure that the gospel didn't change over the years. Not significantly I mean, but in the chinese whispers way, people add extra sentences, forget others etc.
b) How can you be sure that Constantine did not intentionally corrupt chrisitanity to make more acceptable for Roman values?

At the time of the council of nicea there were christians who denied the trinity, if they denied it ignoring all the above evidence, is it possible that the that evidence didn't exist 1700 years ago, and has been added by a later council?

God created the entire universe. Why do you think is would be hard for him to create one man?

Exactly how does God have a son?

Why aren't all people the 'son' of god? We are all created by his will.

Ok thats more than one question so I'll stop now before I get carried away.
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 01:40

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

b) How can you be sure that Constantine did not intentionally corrupt chrisitanity to make more acceptable for Roman values?

How is what is contained in the Bible (specifically in the New Testament) compatible with Roman values?  If anything, the New Testament is incompatible and opposite of what it was to be a true Roman.  The New Testament's emphasis on an eternal reward, worshiping one God, salvation by grace through faith, and "turning the other cheek" do not mesh well with Roman values of earthly power and wealth, polytheism, and leaving a good earthly legacy behind. 

The very symbol of the cross would be despicable to a Roman: it was an instrument for the execution of criminals.  To Christians it became the symbol of their redemption and salvation.  Also, Romans thought the act of taking Communion was disgusting and totally misunderstood it to be an act of cannibalism!

God created the entire universe. Why do you think is would be hard for him to create one man?

Um...what makes you think it was so difficult for God to create a man?

Exactly how does God have a son?

Why aren't all people the 'son' of god? We are all created by his will.

In Christ, all Christians are sons and daughters of God.  In Revelation, it says that we will claim our inheritance that we gained through Christ when he calls the church home.  As for Christ himself, he was never created by God.  He is God and Scriptures say that he was with God through out all eternity.



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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 07:31

The Unitarians definitively deny the Trinity. According to their faith Jzus was a simple man, not God, but he was closer to God than any other human being. They beleive that the Holy Siprit is a simple allegory for the actions of God in which he make contact with the people.

http://www.unitarius.hu/uch.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian

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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 14:12
Originally posted by eaglecap

I found this Protestant view by Dr. Norm Gieslar. I read a book on Islam by him and one about logic. I could not finish the logic one- brain exploded-
Forgive me for not maintianing my own rule no cut and paste - bad eaglecap!!! lol
by Dr. Norman Geisler


Trinity simply means "triunity." God is not a simple unity; there is plurality in his unity. The Trinity is one of the great mysteries of the Christian Faith. Unlike an antinomy or paradox, which is a logical contradiction, the Trinity goes beyond reason but not against reason. It is known only by divine revelation, so the Trinity is not the subject of natural theology but of revelation.

The Basis for the Trinity.

While the word Trinity does not occur there, the concept is clearly taught in the Bible. The logic of the doctrine of the Trinity is simple. Two biblical truths are evident in Scripture, the logical conclusion of which is the Trinity:

1. There is one God.

2. There are three distinct persons who are God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

One God. The central teaching of Judaism called the Shema proclaims: "Hear, 0 Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one" (Deut. 6:4). When Jesus was asked the question, "What is the greatest commandment?" he prefaced the answer by quoting the Shema (Mark 12:29). In spite of his strong teaching on the deity of Christ (cf. Col. 2:9), the apostle Paul said emphatically, "there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live" (1 Cor. 8:6a). From beginning to end, the Scriptures speak of one God and label all other gods as false (Exod. 20:3; 1 Cor. 8:5-6).

The Bible also recognizes a plurality of persons in God. Although the doctrine of the Trinity is not as explicit in the Old Testament as the New Testament, nonetheless, there are passages where members of the Godhead are distinguished. At times they even speak to one another (see Ps. 110:1).

The Father Is God. Throughout Scripture God is said to be a Father. Jesus taught his disciples to pray, "Our Father in heaven" (Matt. 6:9). God is not only "our heavenly Father" (Matt. 6:32) but the "Father of our spirits" (Heb. 12:9). As God, he is the object of worship. Jesus told the woman of Samaria, "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshippers the Father seeks" (John 4:23). God is not only called "our Father" (Rom. 1:7) many times but also "the Father" (John 5:45; 6:27). He is also called "God and Father" (2 Cor. 1:3). Paul proclaimed that "there is but one God, the Father" (I Cor. 8:6). Additionally, God is referred to as the "Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 15:6). Indeed, the Father and the Son are often related by these very names in the same verse (Matt. 11:27; 1 John 2:22).

The Son Is God. The deity of Christ is treated [in a future article] in the section on attacks on the Trinity and more extensively in Bakers Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics in an article entitled Christ, Deity of. As a broad overview it should he noted that:

Jesus claimed to be Yahweh God. YHWH, translated in some versions Jehovah, was the special name of God revealed to Moses in Exodus 3:14, when God said, "I AM WHO I AM." In John 8:58, Jesus declares: "Before Abraham was born, I am." This statement claims not only existence before Abraham, but equality with the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. The Jews around him clearly understood his meaning and picked up stones to kill him for blaspheming (see Mark 14:62; John 8:58; 10:31-33; 18:5-6). Jesus also said, "I am the first and the last (Rev. 2:8).

Jesus took the glory of God. Isaiah wrote, "I am the LORD [Yahweh], that is my name! I will not give my glory to another; or my praise to idols" (42:8) and, "This is what the LORD [Yahweh] says . . . I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God" (44:6). Likewise, Jesus prayed, "Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began" (John 17:5). But Yahweh had said he would not give his glory to another.

While the Old Testament forbids giving worship to anyone other than God (Exod. 20:1-4; Deut. 5:6-9), Jesus accepted worship (Matt. 8:2; 14:33; 15:25; 20:20; 28:17; Mark 5:6). The disciples attributed to him titles the Old Testament reserved for God, such as, "the first and the last" (Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13), "the true light" (John 1:9), "the "rock" or "stone" (1 Cor. 10:4; 1 Peter 2:6-8; cf. Ps. 18:2; 95:1), the "bridegroom" (Eph. 5:28-33; Rev. 21:2), "the chief Shepherd" (I Peter 5:4), and "the great shepherd" (Heb. 13:20). They attributed to Jesus the divine activities of creating (John 1:3; Col. 1:15-16), redeeming (Hosea 13:14; Ps. 130:7), forgiving (Acts 5:31; Col. 3:13; cf. Ps. 130:4; Jer: 31:34), and judging (John 5:27). They used titles of deity for Jesus. Thomas declared: "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28). Paul calls Jesus the one in whom "the fullness of deity dwells bodily" (Col. 2:9). In Titus, Jesus is called, "our great God and savior" (2:13), and the writer to the Hebrews says of him, "Thy throne, 0 God, is forever" (Heb. 1:8). Paul says that, before Christ existed as a human being, he existed as God (Phil. 2:5-8). Hebrews 1:3 says that Christ reflects Gods glory, bears the stamp of his nature, and upholds the universe. The prologue to Johns Gospel also minces no words, stating, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word [Jesus] was God" (John 1:1).

Jesus claimed equality with God in other ways. He claimed the prerogatives of God. He claimed to be Judge of all (Matt. 25:31-46; John 5:27-30), but Joel quotes Yahweh as saying, "for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side" (Joel 3:12). He said to a paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven" (Mark 2:5b). The scribes correctly responded, "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (vs. 7b). Jesus claimed the power to raise and judge the dead, a power which only God possesses (John 5:21, 29). But the Old Testament clearly taught that only God was the giver of life (Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6) and the one to raise the dead (Psa. 71:20).

Jesus claimed the honor due God, saying, "He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him" (John 5:23b). The Jews listening knew that no one should claim to be equal with God in this way and again they reached for stones (John 5:18). When asked at his Jewish trial, "Are you the Christ (Messiah), the Son of the Blessed One?" Jesus responded, "I am, and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven" (Mark 14:61b-62).

The Holy Spirit Is God. The same revelation from God that declares Christ to be the Son of God also mentions another member of the triunity of God called the Spirit of God, or Holy Spirit. He too is equally God with the Father and the Son, and he too is a distinct person.

The Holy Spirit is called "God" (Acts 5:3-4). He possesses the attributes of deity, such as omnipresence (cf. Ps. 139:7-12) and omniscience (1 Cor. 2:10, 11). He is associated with God the Father in creation (Gen. 1:2). He is involved with other members of the Godhead in the work of redemption (John 3:5-6; Rom. 8:9-17, 27; Titus 3:5-7). He is associated with other members of the Trinity under the "name" of God (Matt. 28:18-20). Finally, the Holy Spirit appears, along with the Father and Son, in New Testament benedictions (for example, 2 Cor. 13:14).

Not only does the Holy Spirit possess deity but he also has a differentiated personality. That he is a distinct person is clear in that Scripture refers to "him" with personal pronouns (John 14:26; 16:13). Second, he does things only persons can do, such as teach (John 14:26; 1 John 2:27), convict of sin (John 16:7-11), and be grieved by sin (Eph. 4:30). Finally, the Holy Spirit has intellect (I Cor. 2:10,11), will (1 Cor. 12:11), and feeling (Eph. 4:30).

That the three members of the Trinity are distinct persons is clear in that each is mentioned in distinction from the others. The Son prayed to the Father (cf. John 17). The Father spoke from heaven about the Son at his baptism (Matt. 3:15-17). Indeed, the Holy Spirit was present at the same time, revealing that they coexist. Further, the fact that they have separate titles (Father, Son, and Spirit) indicate they are not one person. Also, each member of the Trinity has special functions that help us to identify them. For example, the Father planned salvation (John 3:16; Eph. 1:4); the Son accomplished it on the cross (John 17:4; 19:30; Heb. 1:1-2) and at the resurrection (Rom. 4:25; 1 Cor. 15:1-6), and the Holy Spirit applies it to the lives of the believers (John 3:5; Eph. 4:30; Titus 3:5-7). The Son submits to the Father (1 Cor. 11:3; 15:28), and the Holy Spirit glorifies the Son (John 16:14).

(to be continued)


Theological Dictionary
Authors

Dr. Randall Price
Dr. Steve Sullivan
Dr. Norm Geisler





How much does the Orthodox or Roman Catholic doctrine on the Trinity differ from the above Prostestant view. I gather from talking to Catholics and Orthodox it is fairly close. I was raised Lutheran so my Orthodox experience is limited to only three years as a child.
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 14:38

IN GOD WE



TRUST




all others pay cash


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