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the magyars: the forgotten power.

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  Quote Rava Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: the magyars: the forgotten power.
    Posted: 07-Dec-2004 at 04:54

Originally posted by Lohendrin

I can not help but to make some comparisons between the Magyars and the Poles. Both have mutual liking for each other, which is both strange and reasonable. ...(what about notorious mutual disgust between the Russians and the Poles-I hope it will over soon),

 I can't share your hope. Russians will never forget that  Poles were only nation in the World which took Moscow and the Kremlin Court. (from the west side). I heard that Putin intended to move the National Aniversary to the date when our army left Moscow.

Concerning the Magyar - Polish relationships I belive that maybe in the future we will recognize the history of the forest zone north to the Steppes and I guess that the answer is hidden there.

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2004 at 13:08
seriously, i think this Poles-magyar thing is idotic. Poles only like Hungarians because they're Poland's only neighbour not having defeated the country in a war. in fact I think Hungarians feel closer to Croats, Slowaks and even Germans, they share much more common history. common history between Poles and hugnarians is rather limited.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2004 at 14:56

Originally posted by Temujin

seriously, i think this Poles-magyar thing is idotic. Poles only like Hungarians because they're Poland's only neighbour not having defeated the country in a war. in fact I think Hungarians feel closer to Croats, Slowaks and even Germans, they share much more common history. common history between Poles and hugnarians is rather limited.

Well, i dont agree with you. Maybe the ties between Poland and Hungary are not very close but are traditionally good. There were only few times in the history when Hungary and Poland were competiting for somthing. They had rulers from Poland, we had rulers from Hungary. They were helping us when we were in trouble (eg hungarian volunteers during polish uprising against Russia in 1863-1864), we were helping them (eg 1848 - when lots of polish troops and officers joined hungarian forces). In 1944 during Wasaw Uprising Hungarian troops supplied Polish Home Army with arms against Germans. In 1956 Poles were first in the communist block who sent supplies and medicins to Hungary which was revolting against Soviet Union. After disaster in 1939 many polish soldiers were escaping to west also trough Hungary with the hungarian help. When the Vysehrad group was formed by Hungary, Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia the Czechs and Slovaks were worried if the Poles and Hungarians together can dominate it. So the ties and friendship is almost as long as history of thise countries.

"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2004 at 15:06
I didn't said Poles and Hungars didn't had and have a good relation, i just said it's because there was never a war fought between the two countries, but historically looking, both countries had much closer relation with German countries and Germany in general, and for the most time the relation was good.
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  Quote SOKON   MEJIA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2006 at 23:16
CAN   SOMEONE   TELL  ME     WHAT    ARE    THE    RELATIONSHIP    DURING   THE   AGES     BETWEEN    MAJARS    AND    BULGARS    |  250-632|
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  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2006 at 13:48
Originally posted by Temujin

I didn't said Poles and Hungars didn't had and have a good relation, i just said it's because there was never a war fought between the two countries, but historically looking, both countries had much closer relation with German countries and Germany in general, and for the most time the relation was good.
 
Hi!
 
It were minimum two or three wars between hungarians and the polack brothers that I can wrote for you now without a history book.
 
1. 1018
2. in the 1460-70-s because of Silezia
3. A Transylwanian (in that time Hungarian)-Polish war under Georg of Rkczi.
 
But a little bit of quarell is good for a healthy relationship:-)
 
TSZ
 
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  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2006 at 13:52
Originally posted by SOKON MEJIA

CAN   SOMEONE   TELL  ME     WHAT    ARE    THE    RELATIONSHIP    DURING   THE   AGES     BETWEEN    MAJARS    AND    BULGARS    |  250-632|
 
Hungarian and proto-bulgarian groups were living near by each-other for Centuries. In the written history there are no sources of wars between them until 830.
In the kazarian times probably some b. tribes got hungarian nobless, some h. tribes bulgarians (from the kazar ruler). It was surely a large mixing between the ogurs and ugris:-)
 
TSZ
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  Quote Krum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2006 at 15:29
Does someone know what forced magyars to emigrate in central europe?Do you know about bulgarian-magyar wars in 894-896?
    

Edited by Krum - 01-Jan-2007 at 05:00
It is only the dead who have seen the end of war.
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  Quote SOKON   MEJIA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2007 at 03:46
At  least  i  know  that  they  are   crushed  from  emperor  Simeon  and  the  pechenegs  in  895-896!
The  question  is  how  they  imigrate  because   they  managed  cross  the  bulgarien  teritory
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  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2007 at 07:06
Hi!
 
General history:-) :
 
1.)in 893 the iranian samanid ruler Ismael Ahmed started a campaign against the karluks. It was a total victory, the muslims captured f. e. the wife of the karluk ruler, the katun. The karluks (without land, goods and animals , overrun with the kimeks and uz-s (byzantin: uz, russian: torc, oguz) the territory of the pechenegs in 894. So the pechenegs had to find an other land.
 
2.)you know, the danube-bulgarians made war with byzantium, wich was in war with the persians too (and in generally they won't fight with everyone when this could done bysomeone else:-), so the greeks called the magyars for help. The byzantian danube navy brought the turks (hungarians) behind the bulgarian army,and the magyars defeated in some battles the bulgars (in antient hungarian: nandor (onogundur)), Simeon had to fly into silistra. The main hungarian military power was positioned now in Bulgary( and maybe,that can you reed later) in nowdays Hungary. This whole campaign probably took(?) one or two years. in this time Simeon called (after the cronics) somehow the pechenegs for help, who attacked the hungarian territory (Etelkz-Rivermiddle-land), where the few hungarian power couldn't make enough defend, (the hungarians didn't have a positive relationship with the kazars, since 812, the kazarian "civil war")
and the escaping tribes were attacked by (maybe the south-transylvanian) bulgarian powers. Probably some hungarian tribes were damaged totally. (this shows the h. tribename Krt-Gyarmat: it is made from two tribe names) The survivers and the western (not so damaged) tribes went to Transylvania and to east-Hungary trough the Carpathian passes (Verecke, Tatr, Gorg etc.). After this the hungarians spended 3-4 years in Transylvania, and builded 7 castles of earth. (it takes 3-4 years to born and teach an average war-horse- you probably know what I mean) In a hun. cronic. is writen that as the hung-s were moving in the Carpatians, hawks (Bese-s'pechenegs) captured their horses)
In the 910'S almost the Whole Charpatian basin got hungarian rule.
 
In the 860-90's (I don't know) happened a change in the hungarian leading. The family of lmos (Almoush-the dreamer, the father of rpd) got the rule. They prob. changed the hungarian politic (to the west). In 862 the hungarians first made war in Pannonia (they were a helping army in the war between the franks and the moravians), like in 881 and in the 890's too. Some hungarian military was spending the years before 895-96 by the upper Tisza banks. So it is possible, that the rpds wanted to move to the Carp. basin before the pecheneg attacks. I think this plan realized in the hun. leader's minds in 894, after the karluk-kimek-uz-pecheneg war. It was a habbit of the western horse nomads to arrive in the C.b. (exept the danube bulgars-at that time the terrytory was in strong awarian hands) And this is the reason why the hungarians answered positiv to the byzantian call for help. They wanted to know the bulgarian main powers south of the Carpatians and to have a free way to go in.
 
The Etelkz before the pecheneg-bulgarian attack: in the work of Const. Porfurojenetos it is written thet the pechenegs of the 950's got the land wich was ruled by the hungarians 50 years before. This means the whole Muntinia, Moldavia and the nothern lands by the Black-see. But the Bulgars got Transylvania, the territory near by Belgrad (in hun: Nndorfehrvr-Onogundur- white-castle) and probably some lands by Csongrad (black-castle). It is said that the hungarians made little wars in Transylwania with the bulgars, who pretended their salt mines, in transylvania died lmos too. In the cronicles is written that Almos was killed ritualy by the hungarians because of the pecheneg attack. But I think it is a Bible-like story, Moses couldn't see Kanaan too. lmos was probably killed by the bulgars in a battle.
 
TSZ


Edited by Tar Szernd - 01-Jan-2007 at 07:52
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  Quote Burdokva Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 19:13
Nomadic farmers


You'd be surprised as just how often I hear that phrase as a joke from fellow students... :)

Simeon's defeat of the magyars was especialy devastating beacause he attacked them from both sides (bulgars from the sount, pechenegs from the north) and caught the magyars off-guard, in a sence. If I'm not mistaking he delibarately attacked when the bulk of the magyar cavalry was engaged in a military conflict in Panonia.

After that Simeon prefered to let them go trough his teritory, instead to continue fighting. The Northern bulgarian (the Upper Land as it was known by the bulgars) lands were severely damaged by the magyar raids.
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 10:32
"Simeon's defeat of the magyars was especialy devastating beacause he attacked them from both sides (bulgars from the sount, pechenegs from the north) and caught the magyars off-guard, in a sence. If I'm not mistaking he delibarately attacked when the bulk of the magyar cavalry was engaged in a military conflict in Panonia. "
 
There are historians who reconstruct the events in a different way. According to them Simeon sent the Pechenegs against the Magyars, but did not lead an army against them.
 
What seems certain that Bulgars lost Transylvania to the Magyars while the Magyars had to gave up their "over- Carpathian lands" (in Moldavia) to the Pechenegs.
 
nomadic farmers
 
The proper term is semi-nomadic I think.
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2007 at 17:43
Originally posted by Lohendrin

"The Soviet Russian master convened his clients from Poland, Czechia and Hungary for a formal chat. To test the reaction, he put on the chair reserved for each delegate a nail (pointedly upward of course). The Pole instantly screamed and jumped up. The Czech winced but held his tougue. The Hungarian, never trusting, looked carefully first, brushed off the nail discreetly then sat down and let out a yell."

There are pretty many fun facts in the history of the Hungarians (or the Magyars as they are fond of being called like that):

-The present universal name ofHungary (Hungaros)consists of Hun, that is definitely derived from the memorable name of the Huns, who settled en masse around the river Tisza in the 5th century, and Ungar, confusedly derived from the the nature of the Magyars who formed the largest group of the cross of the FinnoUgrians, the Onugurs and the Ural Ugrians (all three of them belongs to Turkic families). The name Magyar derives from the Ugrian "Mansi or "Magy" (possibly from a name of a chief) with the addition of the Turkic "-eri." forming "Megyeri" "Magyen." "Magyar". Thus, while the world is fair by calling the land through its mixed nature, the Magyars in accordance with their idiosyncratic Magyar-centricity call it Magyarorszag.

-The present Magyars feel enormously proud that their light-horsed ancestors once ravaged the whole "Western civilization" with impunity yet simultaneously they would feel extremely outcasted if anyone fails to recognize "The Bulwark of Western Christendom". Magyars' raids stopped Not with the Gothic triumph of Lechfeld only but with the equal peace treaty between Emperor Otto I and Prince Geza and the Magyar adoption of Western Christianity (sealed by the marrige between the daughter of one and the son of the other-Stephan or Istvan St). Funny enough, the son of the saintly one became saint in his turn--> Saint Imre (do anyone know Imre Nagy?) and his Latin name would be Emeric. If we really believe that it was the first time there was a saint name Emeric, it was possible that Amerigo Vespuci was christened after him and so you can guess the next.

-After the Aspad dynasty died out, the Magyars started imported foreign kings a la Pologne: Anjou, Luxembourger, Jagellon and if we really believe what the Rumanians says about Janos Huyany, the Truest Hungarian King Matias Corvin was more than probable Wlach. The Hungarian kingdom reached its peak in the reigh of Luios I of Anjou and especially during the reign of Matias Huyany the Raven (1458-1490) when Hungary was the uncontested political and cultural lord of Central Europe, comprised in its land Buda, Visegrad, Vienne, Prague and Belgrad (won through great triumph against the Ottomans in 1456). And as the Magyar historians put it "in this few year, the Magyars truly lived in 'Western Standard'".

-Mohac 1526. 26000 Magyars was annihilated by 80000 to 300000 Ottomans. From this moment onwards, history of Hungary became either a parasite (in the case of Austria) or a contest (in the case of Transivania) or an extinction (in the case of Ottoman empire). The Magyar nobles infact became professional mercenaries, fighting in all the armies of Central and Eastern Europe. From Smolensk to White Mountain, from Norlingen to Vienne 1683 (in the present unpolitical-correct side), the Magyars fought and inspired Europe the famous cavalry formation--Hussar.

-Talking about Hussar, I can not help but to make some comparisons between the Magyars and the Poles. Both have mutual liking for each other, which is both strange and reasonable. Strange is not that the Poles are Slavs and the Magyars, well, Magyar (what about notorious mutual disgust between the Russians and the Poles-I hope it will over soon), but that in the Age of nationalistic Romanticism, the Magyars were no less aggressive than the Germans in asserting their role of "protecting the Western Civilization amidst Slavonic barbarism". And Reasonable is that dispite their racial differences (which is now hardly to distinguish), how can anyone pick out a Polish magnate and a Magyar one. Both share the same nobility, "hussar" psychy that is grandiousity, honour, haut culture, free-care and gallantry (in both senses). Sorry for any steortype. In all central and Eastern Europe, we can find no such similarities, with the exception in Ukrain, Lithuania or Slovakia, regrettably, the nobles in those lands asserted themselves either as Poles or Magyars. What is more, both cherish a history of King-for-king relation (quite unfair to the Magyars since while the Poles get Victors (like Istvan Batory), the Magyars get the whole set of the vanquished (Lasdislas IIII at Varna, Luois II at Mohac). This tradition of reciprocating high regard continued in the age of the Dual Monarchy (The arrogant Magyars saw Polish Gentry in Galicia as their equal partners while snubbed at the Szechs) and the Warsaw Rising (Fascist Magyars showed quite a kindness to the Varsovian FREEDOM-FIGHTERS). But that is enough with the Poles

-After Karlowitz, all Hungary fell under the rule of the Hasburg. The fact that Hungary is bigger than the rest of the Empire made the Hungarian question indispensible. But since this post is not a brief history, it is merely a collection of the facts that I find FUN, therefore, I would like to fly all from Maria Theresa and Joseph II (I would like all his reforms except the idea of forcing all his subjects to speak the language which his great*5grandfather Charles V deemed worthy only of horse-courting). Now we stop in 1867, the coronation of the Dual Monarch, Franz Joseph and his lovely queen, Elizabeth, who was the very initiator of the Dual Monarchy and who was infatuated with the Hungarian "Dash, Gallantry and Brilliance". From then on, 10 million Magyars alongside with 12mil Germans ruled the whole empire of 40 million souls. And if you want to ask how fine it was under the yoke of Magyar gentry, just ask a Slovak, a Croat or a Rumanian. Magyariztion was rigidly realized, and in the kingdom of Hungary, even a high-born Wlach could only show off his talent if he allowed himself to be Magyarized. Mind you the great Kossuth and the greater Petofi "national poet" had been Slovak in the first place. Truly, the Hungarian policy so upset Franz Ferdinand that he had made some terrible vows against the Magyars which, paradoxically, were more realized by his assassination than if he would have done them alive. After WWI, Hungary was stripped two-third of her land and one-third of her population, The HEAVIEST punishment any central power had to suffer. And then, Bela Kun and then, Hothy and then, Imre Nagy, and then... and then...

-Now I would talk about something more enchanting. One of the greatest composers of the Classical era (I dislike all of them), Joseph Haydn was court musician of Esterhazy family (a most powerful family in the Central and Eastern Europe, an equal of the Polish Czartoryski and the Russian Volkonski). Mozart was theirs too for a short period. They also patronated for a hefty trunch of time Ferenc Liszt, the greatest of all romanticists, SECOND only to CHOPIN (subjectively).

-I find no reason whatsoever to count for the "brilliance" that Elizabeth Sissy loved about the Magyars except the fact that they got 10 Nobel Prizes on Physics and Chemistry and half of the scientists working on the Mahattan Project were Hungarians.

-Calling Hungary a "Forgotten power" is a double mistake because firstly she has been anything but power since 1490, and secondly, if someone who absolutely have no connection with any kind of Hungarians like me still know quite something about the land, It must be quite famous. Finale.

 
Thanks Lohendrin. Very good description of Hungarian history. Nice reading.
 
P.S. Is it Chopin on Your avatar picture or is it my sick Polish nationalistic imagination working here?
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