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Turkish Professor: Muslims Discovered Ame

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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Turkish Professor: Muslims Discovered Ame
    Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 16:40
The "human origins of North America" is something I hear about so much here - all the North American university archaeology faculties have the continent as their front yard in order to dig, and every year, North American archaeologists keep finding new evidence that keeps pushing back the dates & other notions we were previously accepting.  If I mention some facts you'll think I'm crazy...
 
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 16:42
There are hundreds of Native languages in the Americas. Care to say which one? And what the words mean in both Turkish and whatever language that is? And show a source?
What is history but a fable agreed upon?
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Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 17:14
The use of such so-called historical-linguistic evidence to "prove" the remote ethnic links between various ethnic groups is illustrative of psuedoscience or pseudohistory at its best (or worst?). Yet this kind of activity has become one of the fondest exercises of ultranationalist dogmatists and demagogues and their mindless followers.
 
This actually reminds me of a joke that my Taiwanese friend told me long time ago. He told me that the Min-nan (Southern Fujianese) word for bread is pronounced exactly the same way that the French word for bread ("pain"). So he jokingly said that the Min-nan dialect is related to French.
And I am sure if one bothers to look further, one can find more "French roots" of Min-nan words.
 
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 17:22
Originally posted by flyingzone

The use of such so-called historical-linguistic evidence to "prove" the remote ethnic links between various ethnic groups is illustrative of psuedoscience or pseudohistory at its best (or worst?). Yet this kind of activity has become one of the fondest exercises of ultranationalist dogmatists and demagogues and their mindless followers.
 
 
 
This ought to be added in a giant disclaimer on this site, visible everywhere.
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 17:29
Originally posted by Decebal

There are hundreds of Native languages in the Americas. Care to say which one? And what the words mean in both Turkish and whatever language that is? And show a source?
 
I'm interested to see how he or she answers you.
 
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 19:38
Turkish Language and the Native Americans
 
 
 

4C. Shamanism of Central Asia and North America

The ancestors of the Native Peoples of Americas are known to have migrated from Central Asia and Siberia to their new homelands in the Americas. Like the ancestors of Turks, they also have shamanistic beliefs. This is another area in which one can search for the representations of shamanistic sky, moon and sun gods. Since the Native peoples of the Americas have migrated from Asia to these continents, it is likely that we may find representations of these astral deities being the same or similar to those found in Central Asia. In searching their culture, we find, for example, the following shamanistic representations:

a) An Altaic shaman's map of his visionary journey to the god "Ulgen" is shown in a figure by Joseph Campbell, [JC, p.158, Fig. 276]. In this figure, the shaman's journey starts from his tent and goes via a world (cosmic) tree, then ascends toward the god Ulgen which is shown at the very top of the ascending path. The god Ulgen is represented in the form of a man radiating light all over like the sun.

b) In another figure, "A Chukchi map of the heavenly ways" is shown by Joseph Campbell, [JC, p.158, Fig. 277]. In this map, a sun, a crescent moon, Pole star together with other stars and the Milkyway are illustrated.

c) In the words of Joseph Campbell, we have: 'a colorful yarn painting of the shamanisic visionary journey is given as a New World counterpart to that of the Central Asian Altaic shaman', [JC, p. 159, Fig. 280]. This painting which belongs to the Shamans of the Huichol Indian tribe of Nayarit in western Mexico shows a crescent and a five pointed white star which is attached to one tip of the crescent. There are four wavy rays emanating from the star and also four wavy rays to the left of the star are the "fiery curtain of solar rays through which the shaman had to pass". The path of the shaman's ascent is indicated by footsteps shown on a crescent. This painting is by Ramon Medina.

According to the description given by Joseph Campbell: "this painting by Ramon Medina is of a journey inspired by a supernatural summons to bring back to earth, in the form of a rock crystal, the soul of an ancestral shaman wishing to return. The star is the rock crystal to be found. This visionary journey of a shaman from Mexico obviously resembles that of the shaman from Central Asia (276), even to the detail of the tree, which appears in the Altaic map at the start of the shaman's flight into space, and here in the Huichol painting at the center of the composition."

d) In the words of Mircea Eliade, we have: "The designs ornamenting the skin of the drums are characteristic of all the Tatar tribes and Lapps. Among the designs, are always the most important symbols, as, for example the World Tree, the sun and moon, the rainbow and others. In short, the drums constitute a microcosm: a boundary line separates sky from the earth, and in some places, earth from the underworld", [ME, p. 172].

e) To support this description of a shaman's drum, we have a picture of Lapp drumhead from northern Sweden, c. 1800, [JC, p.176, Fig. 306]. The drum's skin is divided into three segments by two horizontal lines. It is described by Joseph Campbell: "In the Upper World: the sun and moon (or, perhaps the sun setting and rising) are seen along with heavenly beings and their tent. In the middle (left to right): the Mistress of the Beasts sends animals to be hunted; a hunter shoots a reindeer; and a shaman, riding upward in a sleigh drawn by a reindeer, is followed by a dog. In the Lower world: three goddesses suggesting the Norns are pictured."

f) Again we have from Joseph Campbell's book the picture of the Yakut (Karagasy) shaman Tulayev, of Irkutsk, wearing his reindeer-leather swan costume. "On his cap of green cloth is sewn a wolf's muzzle with the moon above and stars on each side. ....", [JC, p. 177, Fig. 307].

g) Four buckskin tipi models, collected from the Cheyenne (Native Peoples) in 1904, are shown by N. Bancroft-Hunt and W. Forman [NBHWF, p. 106-107]. These tipi models show the types of sacred images applied to Medicine tipis. One of them, entitled as "Shining Bell's tipi" bears the images of Sun, Moon and Star and the sacred Eagle that carried prayers from Earth to the Sky, [NBHWF, p. 107].

On this tipi, the sacred images of Sun, Moon and a star are vertically arranged on the side of the tipi. Shown are a four- pointed star at the top, a crescent moon in the middle and a sun disk at the bottom. In this illustration of the shamanistic beliefs of astral gods by Cheyenne Indians, we again observe the crescent and star motif.

h) In a book entitled, "Myths of the World Gods of the Maya, Aztecs, and Incas" by Timothy R. Roberts, MetroBooks, 1996, [TRR, p. 56], there is shown an Aztec headdress, which is said to be the only surviving example of Aztec feather work and is made of hundreds of quetzal feathers, is adorned with many golden or gold colored crescents and sun disks. This headdress is presently in the Museum fuer Voelkerhunde, Vienna, Austria. In the same book, twelve major Aztec gods are depicted by pictures [TRR, p. 58-59], one of which (#6) has a sun symbol where between the rays showing the four directions, there the three-pointed sun rays between four directions. Similarly, on the Aztec god represented in this (#7), there is the eight-pointed star symbol. So, it is seen that these sun, crescent and eight-pointed star symbols are all associated with Shamanic religious concepts.

i) In the same book by Timothy R. Roberts, [TRR, p. 90], there is the picture which depicts "Coya Mama, the wife of Manco Capac, the last Inca ruler". In this picture, Coya Mama is holding a mirror reflecting the sun and the mirror represents her husband as the descendent of the sun. This is a Shamanistic concept. Additionally, Coya Mama has a white robe over her shoulder. On the right shoulder, there is a "an eight-pointed star embraced by a crescent symbol.

In all of these examples of shamanic beliefs, both in Altaic Shamanism and the Shamanism of North America, the sacred representation of sky, moon, sun, star or Venus are illustrated on shaman's maps, tipis, drums and costumes. The crescent and star motif seems to be a prominent motif among the sacred representations. Additionally, in all of these cases, the North American Shamanism and the Altaic shamanism seems to point to a common origin in Central Asia. Since the ancestors of the Native Peoples of Americas have migrated from Central Asia and Siberia to the Americas, finding this common origin among them is quite natural and expected.

10. REFERENCES

AP ..... Anton Powell, "Ancient Greece, Facts On File", Inc., New York, 1989

BO ..... Prof. Dr. Bahaeddin Ogel, "Islamiyetten once Turk Kultur Tarihi (Orta Asya kaynak ve buluntularina gore),

..........Turk Tarih Kurumu Basimevi, Ankara, 1991.

BSc .... Bradley Schaefer, "Heavenly Signs", New Scientist, 21/28 December 1991, p.48.

DJH .... Dora Jane Hamblin, "The First Cities", Time-Life Books, New York, 1973.

EB. .... Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1963, Volume 6, p. 726.

EE ..... Emel Esin, "Buke: The Cosmic Significance of the Dragon in Early Turkish Iconography", Cultura Turcica, Vol. .......... V-VII, 1968-1970, Ankara.

FH ..... Fred Hamori, {[http://www2.4dcomm.com/millenia/], choose "Languages' then "100 word Hymes list";

..........or visit directly "Hymes List of 100 common root word", (http://soleil.4dcomm.com/millenia/hymes.htm)}.

FK ..... Fevzi Kurtoglu, "Turk Bayragi ve Ay Yildiz", Turk Tarih Kurumu Yayinlari, Ankara, 1992.

HNO ... Huseyin Namik Orkun, "Eski Turk Yazitlari", Turk Dil Kurumu Yayinlari: 529, Ankara, 1987.

HS ..... H. W. F. Saggs, "Everyday Life in Babylonia and Assyria", B. T. Batsford Ltd London, G. P. Putnam's

..........Sons, New York, 1965.

IK ..... Prof. Dr. Ibrahim Kafesoglu, "Turk Bozkir Kulturu", Turk Kulturunu Arastirma Enstitusu, Ankara, 1987.

JC ..... Joseph Campbell, "Historical Atlas of world mythology Vol. I, Part 2: Mythologies of the great hunt",

..........Perennial Library, Harper & Row, Pyblishers, New York, 1988.

JLH ... John L. Hayes, "A Manual of Sumerian Grammar and Texts", Undena Publications, Malibu, 1990.

MAC ... M. A. Czaplicka, "The Turks of Central Asia in History and at the Present Day", London: Curzon Press;

..........New York: Barnes & Noble Books, 1973.

ME ..... Mircea Eliade, "Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy", Bollingen Series LXXVI,

..........Princeton University Press, 1964.

NE ..... Necdet Evliyagil, "Turkiye", published on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the

..........Turkish Republic, Ajans- Turk, Ankara, 1973.

NBHWF .. Norman Bancroft-Hunt and Werner Forman, "The Indians of the Great Plains",

..........Orbis Publishing, London, 1981.

ND ..... Nejat Diyarbekirli, "Turkler'de Mezar Yapisi ve Defin Merasimleri", Turk Kulturunu Arastirma Enstitusu,

.......... Prof. Dr. Muharrem Ergin'e Armagan, Yil XXVIII/1-2, Ankara, 1990.

PK ..... Polat Kaya, "A study of the Lemnos Island Inscription: (a preliminary report)", Ottawa, 1997,

........... (ISBN 0-9696949-3-8).

SNK ... Samuel Noah Kramer, "The Sumerians", The University of Chicago Press, Chicago

.......... and London, 1963.

TA ..... Turghun Almas, "Uygurlar (The Uigurs)", vol. 1. Almati, Kazakistan, 1992.

TRR ..... Timothy R. Roberts, "Myths of the World, Gods of the Maya, Aztecs, and Incas",

............ MetroBooks, New York 1996,

TTR ... Tamara Talbot Rice, "The Seljuks", Thames and Hudson London, 1961. VIS Viktor

.......... Ivanovich Sarianidi, "The Golden Horde of Bactria", National Geographic Magazine,

.......... vol. 177, No. 3, March 1990.

 

Discover Native and Turkic Art

 
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 19:59

Bulldog, your "reference" may look impressive but I, as a trained academian, is not impressed. First, look at the credential of that person. He is an engineer by trade and has no background in linguistics at all. Second, look at where he published his "so-called" paper. It is not any reputable internationally-recognized peer-reviewed journal. These days, almost anyone can publish anything one wants. Third, just look at his reference list. Not even one of them mentions anything about this so-called "link" between the Turkish language and any Native American languages. The whole reference list, though impressive, consists entirely of either studies on the Turkish language or those on Native American languages. Finally, apparently, this Kaya person is the only expert in the whole world (together with his "supporters" of course) who is knowledgeable in this area. There are no peer researchers and of course no critics. (In the scientific community, having critics is actually a good sign because it means people take you seriously. If no one even gives a damn about your "research", it shows how much "value" your research is.) His name is never mentioned - even once - in any of the reputable and even not-that-reputable journals/periodicals going back to the 19th century. (I have two very powerful literature search tools - ProQuest and JSTOR that pretty much allow me to have access to any publications made even back to the late 19th century.)

Pseudoscience is usually very appealing because it is eyecatching and because it speaks to those who share the same agenda. But this is exactly what makes it so dangerous.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 22:09

Well, "flyingzone", if the above study is not scientific enough, do you have "serious" refferences about the similarities between native and east asian cultures? Something in common should exist, I guess, because they are genetically the same people, after all.

And I am very interested in finding out
 
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  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 22:28
http://www.rozanehmagazine.com/NoveDec05/AzarbayeganPart1.html

also, isn't Polat Kaya himself/herself Turkish?

His/Her webpage

http://www.compmore.net/~tntr/lemstelea.html

Claiming that etruscans are Turkic (is this where it all started btw?)




Edited by mamikon - 07-Nov-2006 at 22:33
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 22:36

To be honest, even if there're any genetic links between the peoples of those two regions, any cultural or linguistic similarities between them would have been diluted so much that I seriously doubt the credibility of any claim for such. I will, however, try to do some search from more credible sources to see if I can come up with something.

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  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 22:40
Some poeple are assuming that because 20,000 years ago humans lived in Central Asia, they are somehow automatically considered Turkic or proto-Turkic, although the term itself came into existance way after...
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 22:52
Originally posted by mamikon

http://www.rozanehmagazine.com/NoveDec05/AzarbayeganPart1.html

also, isn't Polat Kaya himself/herself Turkish?

His/Her webpage

http://www.compmore.net/~tntr/lemstelea.html

Claiming that etruscans are Turkic (is this where it all started btw?)


 
OF COURSE he or she is Turkish. If not, do you think Bulldog would have cited him/her? Big smileBig smileBig smile
 
Honestly, if that claim were made by a Native American scholar, I would look at it entirely differently, with a lot more interest. But when such a claim is made by a Turk with very suspicious credentials and unknown agenda, I am SORRY, I just don't buy it. Of course, if the claim were made by a respectable and legitimate Turkish academic source published in a reputable peer-reviewed journal, I will also treat it with respect and with a healthy dose of criticism just like the way we should all treat academic research findings.
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 23:11

I agree with what Mamikon said above.

Pinguin, I did a rather crude search and did come up with a few academic studies that are related to the topic that you are interested in. But unlike that comically simplistic article that Bulldog shared with us, a lot of these studies are hard to read and require extensive knowledge in historical linguistics and cultural/physical anthropology of not just all those diverse Native American peoples but also pre-historic Siberian peoples. Those studies are really way beyond me. Let me show you a citation (that may pertain to your interest) and you will know what I mean:
 
"8000-6000B.C. Peoples of the remnant Bering Platform, related to one another and to contemporary peoples of northeastern Siberia, but not completely homogenous culturally, expanded over the Alaskan interior. Although presumably accustomed to prey on terrestrial animals of the Artic region, none of these people moved far eastward into the deglaciated portions of Canada. Rather, the direction of their disposal was toward the southern Alaskan coast and the southeastward down the Northwest Coast and through the Northwest interior about as far as the present southern border of Canada. These would form the remote ancestors of the Da-Dene-speakers and, probably, other Indians of the Northwest Coast, as well as one portion of the ancestors of at least some Eskimo-Aleuts. They were not, however, among the earliest immigrants to the New World, for the distribution of their most characteristic artifacts is no farther south than the latitude of the state of Washington."
 
Dumond, D.E. (1987). A re-examination of Eskimo-Aleut pre-history. American Anthropologist, 89(1), 32-56.   
 
The paper is very technical and is difficult to read if you don't have the necessary background.
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  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 01:19
Polat Kaya is a comedian, and well known name in Allempires.com Forum. (use search for more information)
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 19:04

There are clear connections between Native American nations and Shamanic Siberian Turkic communities. Alot of similarities are being found.

The migration was 10,000 years ago, cultures had developed by then, the Native American Nations and Altaic's have a distant connection.
 
Maybe you would like to attack that guy's material rather than him personally it would be more credible Wink
 
 


Edited by Bulldog - 08-Nov-2006 at 19:17
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 19:44
For as far as I know, I didn't attack that guy personally. I was merely pointing out the lack of credibility of his "research." Like I said, for someone to make such a hard-to-substantiate claim, one has to provide much more solid evidence than amateurish armchair "research" done by him.
 
I still do not see how one can possibly claim clear connections between Native American nations and Shamanic Siberian Turkic communities can be made in light of the total lack of credible evidence. I would be hesitant even to call that connection tentative and speculative, let alone clear.
 
(As a matter of fact, I even question whether 10,000 years ago, one can given a name or characterization for  any pre-historic cultures that were in existence in Siberia. If you talk to a Korean/Chinese/Mongolian ultranationlist, he or she would tell you that that prehistoric Siberian culture was in fact Korean/Chinese/Mongolian. But obviously, the reality is that it was none of them because nation-states as units for political entity are modern invention.)
 
Do we not see a "pseudohistorian" arguing for his case here? Wink
 
These claims of yours are particularly astounding, given the fact that you are the person who regularly accuses others of the following:
 
Originally posted by Bulldog

your subjective views do not account for historical fact and evidence.
 
 


Edited by flyingzone - 08-Nov-2006 at 19:47
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  Quote Neoptolemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 20:55
Very well said flyingzone. I agree with your posts.

Originally posted by flyingzone

As a matter of fact, I even question whether 10,000 years ago, one can given a name or characterization for  any pre-historic cultures that were in existence in Siberia.
Not only in Siberia but anywhere in the world, I may add.

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  Quote Joinville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 04:31
Shamanism isn't proof of anything much here.

There's shamanistic traditions from the Sami and Finns in Scandinavia to the North, to the Turks to the south (with the Hungarians in between in Europe) and the Koreans et al. in the east of the Eurasian continent.
The tradition stretches over into the New World and can reasonably be presumed to have been brought over by people migrating into it over the Bering Strait.
Though curiously enough the most clear cut example of shamanism in the Eurasian style in the New World comes from the Chilean Mapuche at the southern tip of South America.

This is a very large area with a very diverse popuation speaking a lot of different languages which happen to share a mode of spiritual culture.

Heck, even the old Norse religion of Scnadinavia display traits associated with shamanism (the Tree of the World, Odin sacrificing himself... to himself, in order to gain wisdom etc.).

Could we then somehow argue then that it all originated in Scandinavia?

After all, that was done once, with regards to Scandinavia, but was found to be a thoroughly bad idea. It's hard to see why crediting some other people with the same thing would be much of an improvement.

Shamanism isn't proof of anything much oher than its own popularity with a lot of people over a very long time.
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 14:32
Is it possible that the shamanistic similarities & words were coincidences - haven't there been cases of separate societies developing almost identical practices & words?
 
 
 
 


Edited by Hellios - 09-Nov-2006 at 14:33
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 15:20
Originally posted by Joinville

Shamanism isn't proof of anything much here.
 
I dissagree a little bit. For me the problem is the following. In the Americas exists some very spread cultural patterns that can be seen almost in all cultures, from the simpler to the more advanced.
 
Some of them are:
(1) The cult of maize, which is obviously local because that plant is American in its origin.
 
(2) The cult of the Mother Land (Pachamama in Quechua means literally Mom Land, and that the same in almost all Amerindian cultures).
 
(3) The cult to the four direccions of the compass.
 
(4) Certain artistic styles that repeat quite amazingly accross the continent.
 
Now, Mapuches do have a very ancient and CLEAR shamanic tradition, but they are not the only ones. The Amazons, the Andes and Mexico is plenty of quite similar shamanic traditions.
 
Now, my point is, although shamanism is general, I GOT THE IMPRESSION that certain cultural traditions could have a common origin.
 
People usually believe that 15.000 years is too much for a culture to be preserved. However, we know Easter Islanders preserve theirs Polynesian language after more than a thousand years of isolation. Moreover, without writing, they still remember the chief that landed in the Island.... and the names of the ships! And cases like that are not unique.
 
Moreover, things like the bow and arrow, and the spear throwers, were very likely Asian inventions that entered the Americas with the migrants. And what about the tipi or teepee, which are identical in Asia and North America?
 
Perhaps 15.000 years is a very long period, but perhaps, hidden somewhere, there are certain cultural patterns that survived 15.000 years of inventions and changes.
 
Who knows? Wouldn't it be fine to know?
 
Pinguin.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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