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Mongol Tribes: Origins of The Halha Mongo |
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yan. 
Consul 
Joined: 15-Apr-2005 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 352 |
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 Topic: Mongol Tribes: Origins of The Halha MongoPosted: 08-Nov-2006 at 08:34 |
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Correction to my last post: Tungalag means clear or bright. According to Vietze's Mongolian-German dictionary
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borudjin
Knight 
suspended Joined: 16-Oct-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 55 |
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Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 05:03 |
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the khalka are just tungusic people with no relation to genghis khan at all! the yuan dynasty was the 15th century and it was natural for a man with turkic background to try and organise people into groups, the way he was used to( organise people into clans, groups and use them like a proper turkic army). :D
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Akskl
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Joined: 31-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 132 |
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Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 12:47 |
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I don't have the Orkhon Turkic language dictionary (does it exist?). http://depts.washington.edu/centasia/orkhon.htm Department of Near Eastern Languages Orkhon Turkic (3 credits) TKIC 546 Instructor: Ilse D. Cirtautas The course will discuss the language and the historical and literary significance of the oldest Turkic documents, inscribed on funeral steles in a script resembling the Runic alphabet of the Germanic tribes. The steles were erected in the vicinity of the river Orkhon, in northwestern Mongolia, hence the designation: Orkhon Turkic. Discovered between 1893 and 1897, the inscriptions immortalize leaders of the II. Turk Empire (680-745 A.D.). The language preserved on these stone monuments is the ancestral language of all Turkic languages spoken today. Although centuries apart, Orkhon Turkic is surprisingly close to its modern variants.
The course will give an overview of the earliest history of the Turks, starting with the year 552 A.D., when Bumin Kaghan established the I. Turk Empire, stretching from present-day Mongolia in the East to the shores of the Caspian Sea in the West. The second part of the course will discuss the script and its decipherment, followed by close readings of the inscriptions of Kul Tegin, Bilga Kaghan and Tonyuquq (732-734 A.D.) Edited by Akskl - 04-Nov-2006 at 12:59 |
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yan.
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Joined: 15-Apr-2005 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 352 |
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Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 04:53 |
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TWO Burkhan Khaldun mountains!! The first one is Khentii Khan Uul, and the second one is Erdene Uul today!! I don't understand how this is possible - not to know and to rename Genghis Khan's SACRED mountain! I'm sure Kazakhs would know the real mountain. Anyway, that two, or three, or four mountains go by the same generic name in one area is absolutely normal for Mongolia. Khuvsgul province has at least three Ikh-Uuls, for example. The same goes more or less for sum centers. I suppose SACRED things have an even stronger tendency to go by generic names. At least in the west that's definitely the case.If it was destroyed in the 1930's then the local herdsmen would definitely know all the exact details.
Definitely. It's no more than 69 years ago, after all. With only 53 or so years following during which the purges of the late 30's, and indeed almost anything related to religion, were a complete non-topic. Given that Mongolians normally reach biblical ages and almost never move to the cities, anyone in the area should know exactly what happened.
Sorry for not being too competent in Mongolian (maybe I'll look into my dictionary later today), but offhand I'd say that
-no.81: tunggalag , as already posted, is a Mongolian word,too, and means glistening IIRC.
-no.83: Gol means river in Mongolian. Does the text refer to a river or to a lake?
-no.86: nar is a Mongolian plural ending, too. Or actually a particle
-no.129: Darhan means craftsman in Mongolian
-no.141: the Mongolian word for older brother is "ah". Or "aq" if you use Onon's transcription (which uses "q" for what is "х" cyrillic and "kh" or "h" in Latin)
-no.209: And in Halha Mongolian hat is Malgai. Not so sure about the traditional script (for ex. what is transliterated as "yeke" from traditional script is "их", or "ih" in Halha Mongolian).
http://dict.edu.mn says that
(125) falcon in Mongolian is shonhor (thought so)
(79) sohor means blind in Mongolian, too
(156) menge is a mongolian word for mole as well
Of course it's not really surprising that there could be loanwords in Mongolian, or that words have died out - or even that loanwords have died out. I suppose such things happen in most languages. If you take an old english text, you might find a lot of Latin or french loanwords that are out of use today. That doesn't mean the text is written in either French or Latin.
I'd like to know what exactly is taken from Onon's book, and what is commentary by you or someone else, though. Obviously the remark after no.81 is not by Onon?
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gok_toruk
Arch Duke 
9 Oghuz Joined: 28-Apr-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1831 |
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Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 03:18 |
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Good job AqSaqal; keep up the good work. The Turkic words in Secret History is of a northern origin; I mean a northern Turkic dialect. Using 'soqor' instead of 'soqar' or use of the word 'qowa' (qowi) which was unique to Northern Turkic dialects. The same is about 'nar'. Or use of 'ch' instead of 't' at the beginning of the word.
Just to add an explanation, 'ot tigin' is the youngest son of the family who inherits (usually) the house (yurt) of father. Among northern people, it is 'ot chigin'.
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Guests
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Posted: 31-Oct-2006 at 22:31 |
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Mr Akskl Do you have Orkhon Turkic language dictionary? |
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Akskl
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Joined: 31-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 132 |
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Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 21:33 |
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References to the so-called "Orkhon Turkish dialect" in the Urgunge Onon's "Secret History":
72. Tenggis - ocean 79. Soqor - blind 81. Tunggelik or Tonggelik river - means "to flow" or a "wheel" in Kazakh (dongheleg), and not related to "deresu" - "mat-thorn grass" as Urgunge Onon proposes. 82. Alan Qo'a - "Outstanding beauty" in Orkhon Turkish 83. Kol - lake 86.-lar, -nar plural ending inTurkic 125. Shinqor -kind of falcon (Sunqar in Kazakh), bilge -wise, beki - "another Orkhon Turkish title" 128. "Otchigin is a compound of the Orkhon Turkish word ot -"fire" ("ot" in Kazakh -A.)..." " Buri" means "wolf" in the Orkhon Turkish dialect..." 129. "Kishlig ...means "huge", "broad-minded", "boastful" in Orkhon Turkish... "Darqan" translated here as "freedman" is an Orkhon Turkish term ... 131. ...Kolen means large lake in Orkhon Turkish... 141. The text says "older brother" (aqa) (agha in Kazakh - A.) 148. ...the prefix dei-, derived from an Orkhon Turkish word meant "mother's younger brother"... 149. Quda ... page 57: Dei-sechen said: "Yisugei-quda..." (quda means relatives trough marriage in Kazakh, and not derived from "qudaldaqu - to sell", as Urgunge Onon proposes - A.) 156. Monglik meant "mole" (naevus) in Orkhon Turkish... 166. Bekter... derives form the Orkhon Turkish word for armour and military equpment more generally. 170. The word "otermeleju" transllated here as "shot at" derives from the Orkhon Turkish "oter" to beat or to kill (oltir in Kazakh). 207. ...moqariya derives from the Orkhon Turkish mokai, a large male brown bear... 208. Maliyasuqay"sacrifice" was an Orkhon Turkish word... 209. ...yeke maqalay (big hat)... - (malakhay - Turkic word even in Russian - A.) to be continued... http://www.zanabazar.mn/Guide/Burkhan/burkhan.html "Another locale in the Khentii Mountains frequented by Zanabazar was 7724-foot Khentii Khan Uul, also known as the Burkhan Khaldun of the Khamug Mongols. The top of this mountain is where, according to legend, Chingis Khan went to pray for guidance before going into battle. (It should not be confused with the Burkhan Khaldun of the Uriankhai, where Chingis, in an famous episode in his early life, hid from the Merkit tribesmen who had kidnapped his wife Bцrte and tried to kill him, now identified by most historians as 7534-foot Erdene Uul, about twenty miles southwest of here.)" TWO Burkhan Khaldun mountains!! The first one is Khentii Khan Uul, and the second one is Erdene Uul today!! I don't understand how this is possible - not to know and to rename Genghis Khan's SACRED mountain! "To accommodate Buddhist pilgrims to Burkhan Khaldun Zanabazar established a temple at the base of the mountain, in the valley of the Bogdiyn Gol, a tributary of the upper Kherlen This temple was completely destroyedapparently by the communists in the 1930s, although even local herdsmen are unaware of the exact details and today not a trace of any buildings remains." If it was destroyed in the 1930's then the local herdsmen would definitely know all the exact details. Edited by Akskl - 30-Oct-2006 at 21:43 |
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yan.
Consul
Joined: 15-Apr-2005 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 352 |
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Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 11:51 |
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So these names were transliterated from the original forms to Chinese characters, then to French (directly?), then to Russian(directly?) and now to English, and you are to say that "Ursson" is definitely a different name from "Orhon"? By that logic, "Hovd" and "Kobdo" would certainly be two completely different names, wouldn't they? "tungalag" is a word that exists in Mongolian as well, so the (alleged) name-shift doesn't really prove to much.
I suppose the "-hora" in "Dulan-hora" is Russian? That of course might mean that this particular mountain has really changed its name over the last eight centuries. But then, Dulan might still be Buryat.
Anyway, not counting the Orhon and Kumur (unless you give the full quote from p.61) examples, you have given six geographical names that, according to Rene Grousset, really seem to have changed. But "six" really doesn't equal "all". Once again, what's up with the Tuul, Herlen, Onon and Selenge rivers? Certainly they do appear somewhere in the Secret History, don't they? And if we are to accept that Chinggis was born in Khentii, they might even be more significant than some lake in Xinjiang. Edited by yan. - 30-Oct-2006 at 11:57 |
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Akskl
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Joined: 31-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 132 |
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Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 22:19 |
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I have Russian translation of Rene Grousset's "Genghis Khan". The
following CITATIONS from the book are geographical names mentioned in
the Secret History which are on territory of modern Mongolia and which
today are all totally different:
p.13 "...Tungelik river - today it is called Hara..." p.35 "...Chekcher and Chihurhu mountains today are called Altan-nomor and Dulan-hora..." p.35 "...Ursson river - today is Orchun-gol" p.61 "...located on mountain which today is called Kumur..." p.81 "...Buyruk roamed along the banks of Sogokh which is how Kobdo was used to be called on its upper flow..." p.82 "...lake Qyzyl Bash, or as today's Ulungur..." p.108 "Baljun lake (or Mud lake) must be sought between Onon and Ingoda..." and so on... Edited by Akskl - 27-Oct-2006 at 22:21 |
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barbar
General 
retired AE Moderator Joined: 10-Aug-2005 Location: Italy Online Status: Offline Posts: 781 |
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Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 08:43 |
When a new group came to a region, they don't necessarily change the names of the places in their own language. Any reasonable person knows this fact. so your reason is not logical and its far from being enough for claming a people to be part of Turkic because the names of the places they were living were in Turkic. We know the changing of the names of the places is usually longer process than the changing of inhabitants. For instanse, lets assume you have a city in Qazaqstan built and named by Russians, then Qazaqs start to settle in the city. After some time, the Russians, original builders of the city, start to move out of the country. What will happen to the name of the city? Qazaqs know Russian well because they lived together, so they know the meaning of the city in Russian, and also they get used to it, so the name of the park most likely to remain as a Russian name for several generation. After the complete dispappearance of Russian influence, then renaming might happen since the new generations don't know the Russian meaning. Can we call the first few settled Qazaq generations as Russian, because the name at that time was in Russian? |
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Either make a history or become a history.
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yan.
Consul
Joined: 15-Apr-2005 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 352 |
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Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 04:11 |
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Since the Danube and Don rivers have been brought up :
The names of the river (German: Donau, Slovak: Dunaj, Albanian: Danubi, Polish: Dunaj, Hungarian: Duna, Croatian: Dunav, Serbian: Дунав / Dunav, Bulgarian: Дунав (Dunav), Romanian: Dunăre, Ukrainian: Дунай (Dunay), Italian: Danubio, Latin: Danuvius, modern Greek: Δούναβης, Turkish: Tuna, Slovene: Donava, local Yiddish: Duner - דונער and Tine - טינע) are all ultimately derived from the Proto-Indo-European *dānu, meaning "river" or "stream". (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube )
During the times of the old Scythians it was known in Greek as the Tanas, and has been a major trading route ever since. Tanais appears in ancient Greek sources as the name of the river and of a city on it. The name derives however from Scythian Dānu "river", akin to modern Ossetic don "river". (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_River%2C_Russia)
Alright, it's just wikipedia. But I can at least confirm that the German name for the Danube river is indeed Donau.
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yan.
Consul
Joined: 15-Apr-2005 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 352 |
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Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 09:08 |
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What are the names of Tuul, Kherlen, Onon, Selenge, Orkhon rivers according to the secret history? |
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Akskl
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Joined: 31-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 132 |
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Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 18:05 |
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This only fact is more than enough for any reasonable person to realize that the Khalkha Mongols have absolutely no relation to the "Turko-Mongols" of Genghis Khan.
All geographical names on the western part of the Great Steppe also are different today: Danube instead of Tuna, Dniestr instead of Turla, Dniepr instead of Aqsu, Don instead of Tan, Volga instead of Edil, Ural instead of Jaiyq. Because those former Turkic territories now are occupied and populated by Russians, Ukranians and other non-Turkic peoples. Edited by Akskl - 26-Sep-2006 at 18:13 |
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barbar
General
retired AE Moderator Joined: 10-Aug-2005 Location: Italy Online Status: Offline Posts: 781 |
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Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 08:57 |
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It is very normal to change the names of a place after some new group inhabit a region. Mongol steppe were ruled by Turkic people from Hunnic period. Then came the Mongols and gave mongolic names to some places. You are repeating this time after again. What's the problem? |
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Either make a history or become a history.
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Akskl
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Joined: 31-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 132 |
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Posted: 25-Sep-2006 at 23:21 |
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I have American historical atlas where it is shown that they lived
somewhere south from Gobi desert, and later, much later than Genghis
Khan times, they occupied territories of modern Mongolia (Outer and
Inner) and renamed ALL geographical names mentioned in the Secret
History (who were Turkic) including Genghis Khan's sacred mountain of
Burkhan Khaldun (today it is called Tzagaan-Uul!)
At the same time other Turkic geographical names like Ertis (Irtysh) and Buqtyrma (Bukhtarma) rivers, Altay mountains etc. located on Kazakh territory, and mentioned in the Secret history, stay today the same. |
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xi_tujue
Arch Duke
Atabeg Joined: 19-May-2006 Location: Belgium Online Status: Offline Posts: 1919 |
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Posted: 24-Sep-2006 at 03:14 |
I think you mean is that the khalha mongols came fom manchuria right?
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Akskl
Samurai
Joined: 31-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 132 |
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Posted: 24-Sep-2006 at 00:14 |
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During Genghis Khan times the Khalkha used to live south from the Gobi
Desert. They occupied territory of present Mongolia much later.
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Jonon
Janissary 
Joined: 09-Sep-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
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Posted: 23-Sep-2006 at 05:00 |
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where is Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai? your posts are very interesting
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Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai
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Joined: 29-Dec-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 108 |
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Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 09:11 |
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The Mongols of western wing lived in the present western Inner Mongolia. The eastern Inner Mongolia was populated by Horchin, Ujiyed, Ongliud and Duyan Urianghai, who were the descendants of Chinggis Khan's brothers. The present eastern Mongolia was populated by the Halhas and the Urianghai, while western area of Mongolia belonged to the Oirats during that time. The Chahars lived in the border area of Mongolia and Inner Mongolia. Perhaps, I can mark them on a map later.
Edited by Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai |
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Temujin
King 
Sirdar Bahadur Joined: 02-Aug-2004 Location: Eurasia Online Status: Offline Posts: 5221 |
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Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 16:07 |
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which modern countries/regions would include the western wing (Yungsiyebu-Kharchin, Mongolcin-Tumet, Ordos)?
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