US takes advantage of cartoon fiasco

Originally posted by Mortaza Mortaza you are off base if you think terrorists are just poor suffering victims. Very many, both in their leaders and in their foot soldiers, are middle class, university educated people...engineers, doctors... intellectuals of different stripes as well. They are not about righting wrongs or advancement for their people.  They are about blind hatred of the West. Just guess, who erected this hatred inside of them?

I'm statrting to think that it is Islam which breeds that hate and intolerance. It does it because it is a Patriarchal religion that promotes the macho type.

How many muslim died before they began to attack? Infact they help somewhat too, but they have not enough power. If they can create terror more, other will think to attack muslim countries. can you tell me what is USA doing in afghanistan(Yeah even in afganistan, didnt you job finish there? or irak?) If west cry for terror, they should remember, they created this terror. they supported this terrorist, they supported Israel(another terrorist country), now they were getting what they give.

Denmark is not the USA, the same as Senegal is not Iran. Packing all in the concept "the West" is stupid.

Besides there are at least two Wests:

1. Christianity (i.e. the USA, Poland, the Vatican)
2. Laicist Europe (i.e. Denmark, Netherlands, France, most of EU)

I know they are miixed but they are not the same, as it's not the same to be pan-Arabist (i.e. Arafat) or to be Fundamentalist (i.e. Hamas).

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Originally posted by Maju Maybe it would be enough to freeze Saudi acounts in Europe... maybe not. I think that would be weak if something like that of van Gogh happens again. I think that we must be merciless... our tolerance is being pushed to the limit, our benevolence and hospitality is being abused. Maju, you are a fundamentalist Atheist, from this and your other posts you have shown me that the only difference between you, a communist commisar, an inquisitor, or a bible bashing american is only idelology. Before you even think of critizing fundamentalism in others, you should take a look at yourself.

I am of course a fundamentalist of freedom.

I am not atheist, just laicist. I used to be atheist but in my 20s I had some paranormal experiences that made me reconsider. Now I'm pantheist. And I know that God and Satan are one and the same... and that it doesn't matter at all.

And I know that I don't want to live in a monastic society like that of Islam or Medieval Christianity. I want to live in a society that allows the maximum possible freedom and I don't care who gets offended: open your mind and learn to be tolerant and learn to laugh about yourself.

I am a radical libertarian. Yes, I am.

And I don't want more people killed in the name of Islam or any other superstition, at least in Europe.

A piece of common sense for you Maju. Your freedoms are there so that everyone can live happly in your countries. Saying I will persecute you because of freedom is stupid because it defeats the purpose of having freedom in the first place.

Edited by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim A piece of common sense for you Maju. Your freedoms are there so that everyone can live happly in your countries.

Freedom is not happiness: it is just freedom. Happiness is another thing.

Saying I will persecute you because of freedom is stupid because it defeats the purpose of having freedom in the first place.

I'm not sure what you mean.

But I won't persecute you because of freedom, unless you are a threat to freedom. In that case, yes.

No tolerance for the intolerant!

No Hitlers, no Torquemadas, no Khomeinis! Thanks.

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Of course you don't. Because you a close minded fanatic.

  That's an ad-hominem attack: it's probably I who should call you that... but I'm being courteous enough as not to fall in any personalization. Please do the same.

What is the purpose of having the freedom of religion?

To have freedom of religion.

What is the purpose of having the freedom of speech?

To have freedom of speech

What is the purpose of having the freedom of democracy?

To have democracy and a transparent and responsive government.

Freedom justifies itself. Unless you are a fascist.

It is so that everybody can live in a country, free from racism and persectution. Free to live their life in their own way.

Sure.

By propagating racisim, persecution and prejudice in the name of freedom is defeating the entire purpose of having those 'freedoms' in the first place! If anyone is destroying what Europe stands for, it is YOU!

(Again a personal attack - watch that out ). No:

1/ I am not propagating racism: that's a most gratuituous abusive claim from you.

Do you think this woman is racist? She is under death threat for her criticism of Islam, while at the same time she is having a bad time for claiming a better integration of inmigrants in the Netherlands.

2/ I ma not promoting persecution: it is  these people who are persecuting actively:



These people are persecutors. And these people must be kept under control and probably arrested and judged and put in prison.

Why your governments tolerate these death threats and instead arrest journalists?

3/ Prejudice? I don't know: I try to be open and exchange but it seems that whichever prejudices may be floeting regarding Islam... Muslims are trying to make sure that reality fits within them. Again it's not my fault.

Originally posted by Maju But I won't persecute you because of freedom, unless you are a threat to freedom. In that case, yes. No tolerance for the intolerant! No Hitlers, no Torquemadas, no Khomeinis! Thanks. The difference between you and them? Just ideology.

No. The diference is that I won't try to impose my ideology, I won't torture and I won't kill people because of their ethnicity or gender. But I will defend my freedom... by any means necessary.

Originally posted by Maju No. The diference is that I won't try to impose my ideology, I won't torture and I won't kill people because of their ethnicity or gender. But I will defend my freedom... by any means necessary.

You just contradicted yourself in a sentance. Hitler was also defending his people freedom by any means necessary.

They were personal attacks Maju, because I was critising your attitude, not anyone elses. If I included all europeans in that, I would be guily of what I'm preaching against.

Originally posted by Maju Originally posted by Omar al Hashim So, if what you claim is true. The you should be able to, if not understand, at least sympathise to why the cartoons have caused so much outrage. You won't impose your ideology by claiming free speech I've been saying since the very first moment that the cartoons are mostly crap. Yet crap has the right to be published. If someone "in my camp" for want of a better term, ever does something which crosses the line with you, I will be sure to condem them. (Such as burning an embassy or similar), If you come half-way, I will too "Crossing the line" is very subjective unless there is physical violence involved. It depends where do you want to put the line. But a cartoon is just a cartoon. And criticism of religion and religious figures, whatever Bush and the Pope say is legitimate.

So while your being

Originally posted by Maju I try to be open and exchange

are your

Originally posted by Maju I ma not promoting persecution:

and

Originally posted by Maju I am not propagating racism

You are quite happy to let other people do it for you, and happily put yourself between them and the provebial bullet (lets hope its just a proverb), to promote racism, persecution and prejudice. Just like Hitler Youth?


Edited by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by Maju Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Originally posted by Maju No. The diference is that I won't try to impose my ideology, I won't torture and I won't kill people because of their ethnicity or gender. But I will defend my freedom... by any means necessary. You just contradicted yourself in a sentance. Hitler was also defending his people freedom by any means necessary. Only a fascist can say that Hitler was defending his people's freedom. Hitler destroyed the freedom of Germans... he defended his megalomaniac plans and surely the interestst of German capital but not the freedoms of Germany. He attacked and destroyed them instead.

Exactly and your saying exactly the same thing just with a different Ideology.

Originally posted by Maju But I will defend my freedom... by any means necessary. I think that we must be merciless... our tolerance is being pushed to the limit, our benevolence and hospitality is being abused.

Originally posted by Maju They were personal attacks Maju, because I was critising your attitude, not anyone elses. If I included all europeans in that, I would be guily of what I'm preaching against. You are distorting my attitude and accusing me of things that I don't support. I also think that you should discuss the issue, not the person. Bacuse you don't know me.

This is probably a good point. Although your making it very easy for me

Unfortunately we will have to continue this tomorrow as I am going to bed


Edited by Omar al Hashim

these quasi terroists should be deported.  the police didn't do anything about these placards... disgrace.

It was actually mostly muslims who complained to the police about these guys.

Originally posted by Zagros

 I can not begin to tell how angry this makes me feel! You know what these people remind me of, Chihuahas barking madly at a Rottweiler. This is the exact reason that some Americans would prefer to just make a crater out of the middle-east.