US takes advantage of cartoon fiasco

King

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
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Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 13:25

Originally posted by azimuth

who you mean by "we" there? Europe?

yes there are crimes Europeans did to the Middle east and the Muslim world in general,

off course not crimes "you" as an individual did but cirmes on the name of Europe.

few examples?

Europe created Israel

I am 100% against Israel, as many Europeans. But with Palestinians atatcking European symbols, I'm starting to lose interest.

You and I know that it wasn't Europe who kept Israel alive in the Arab-Israeli war: it was the USA.

Occupations of many part of the Islamic world ,

disadvantages of occupations were alot for example Algeria lost 1000,000 person from the French occupations

the Makers of "borders" between courntries which off course many people were ignored and few who benifited from this.

The borders of Arabia are artificial but those of North Africa are mostly historical: Morocco, Algeria, Tunis, Lybia and Egypt existed before European colonization with borders that approximated those of today. Asia was a diferent story, as it was under direct Ottoman rule for the most part.

The partition of Asian Arabia is an European (Anglo-French) creation but I'm sure other European nations such as Germany (who backed Ottoman Empire and later Arab nationalism) opposed it.

supporting dictators and when it gets to a point where these dictators become useless they take them out and Brag about Freeing people !!!

... but remember that the invasion of Iraq is a US-UK thingy. Among the nations of Europe only Poland has fully backed it.

there are many reasons which i didnt mention but i guess i mentioned the important ones

which their effects can be considered one of the main reasons of the problems in the Middle east till these days.

one of the main reasons of the creation of terrorist groups like Al Qaeda was the Blind backing of the West to Israel, and the US presence in the Middle east.

Sure.

those reasons from what the European did in the past , or you dont think so?

Well, I just say that if they hate us, what they are perfectly entitled to: they should burn British flags and boycott McDonalds, not take it with poor little Denmark. Instead the leaders of hamas have no problem in easting at McDonalds, or so I read the other day in an Aljazeera article.

This is what I find puzzling.

If you have problems with Israel and the Iraqui invasion, then boycott USA, boycott UK and even you can boycott France and Poland. But Denmark?

It's like putting the blame in Bahamas or Uganda.

many muslims who you are complaining about coz they are cheering for Bin Laden are the ones who suffered and are still suffering because of what they think what the Westerners did to them.

I don't care if they cheer Ben Laden, as far as Ben laden only attacks US, UK and Israel, which are active enemies of Arabia. What I can't accept its that they attack Shias and that they attack Denmark... soon they will attack Singapore or Liberia, they will attack Berbers and Kurds, they will attack ther own mothers... anything that is not as demented as they are.

And I can't accept that they try to impose their medieval illiterate values to us. That's simply intolerable. If they want to live in the middle of sh*t, fine: their problem. But if they want us to do the same... then I have a major problem.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!

Illuminati View Drop Down

General

Joined: 08-Dec-2004
Location: United States
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Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 13:29

Europe had their hand in placing Israel where it is now. Europe is just as much at fault when it comes to the formation of Israel. It was also european naitons that aided in Israel getting nukes, thats far bigger than selling them arms and planes

Edited by Illuminati

Styrbiorn

Caliph

Joined: 04-Aug-2004
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Posts: 2810

Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 13:36

Originally posted by Mira

<long post>

So technically, you're wrong.

There is one "technicality" that comes in the way though - the forum can't suddenly knock on my door and do me physical harm or take away my freedom. This isn't even apples and oranges; it's a painting of an apple and a real orange.

Maju

King

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565

Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 14:16

Originally posted by Mira

Those of you who support the European stance in its challenge to persistently offend Muslims are really funny, you know? You brag about freedom of expression, and freedom to offend others, while you can't even do that on these forums.

It depends. If it's an ad hominem attack, sure. If it is a cultural critic you can, I believe.

In any case, a forum is a private bubble and like a newspaper has its own inner rules. But if this forum would allow personal insults, the Danish (or US or Greek) government could do nothing about it.

At least legally. You may not see it because your government censor that in your computers but obscenity, blasphemy and any kind of irreverent expression is all around, we like it or not.

The moment you try to provoke someone or offend them, you get a warning or a banning. Isn't that ironic?

I think that's not the case. When you attack personally other people, specially if you do it systematically you get some sort of disciplinary action but if you attack ideological sets, you don't.

Much less if you do that intelligently.

If the rules and regulations of these forums represent the freedom of speech that you celebrate, then you are all being hypocrites in accepting these rules here, while protesting against them in real life.

In fact they aren't exacly the same. But if I insult you, Mira, and specially if I diffamate you, you can sue me. But if I insult Napoleon Bonaparte or Stalin, you can't. Same with Mohammed.

Anyhow, the only legal way is to sue the person you think is abusing his/her rights, not to commit criminal actions destroying private property and threatening the ligfes of people.

That's not just against freedom of speech: it is barbaric and I'm waiting for Syria to jail the people that have set ablaze the Danish embassy. I'm sure they know exactly who they are.

So internet dialogue is more important, and respecting forumers is more important and life-saving than respecting other humans to keep the dialogue between different faiths and civilizations?

You guys are funny .. in a sad way.

This is what is called in Spanish a tertulia, an intelectual exchange in a defined context, we agree that, as everybody can invite him/herself, we need some sort of mods to prevent abuses and let the discussion be stolen by inmature people.

But there are no such rules in real life: spam happens, ad hominem atacks happen and of course rude humor happens. You may be outraged about the cartoons on Muhammed but I'm more worried about a joke I was told the other day showing absolute lack of sensibility about violence against women. Yet, what can I do about it but to show my long serious face and say: "that's not funny: that's not a matter of pun".

If you would have reacted that way, surely you would have got a lot more respect and the issue would be more than settled. Future offenses can't be fully prevented but, if you had achieved respect instead of causing anger, they would be much less likely.

But this way, the only thing that is happening is that islamofobia is deepening in our societies by minutes... because it seems impossible to have a dialogue with people that react like that. You just look like a bunch of fanatics: not religious people with a sensibility and message of peace, but hysterical fanatics full of hate: true tugs and nothing more.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!

Maju

King

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565

Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 14:18

Originally posted by Illuminati

Europe had their hand in placing Israel where it is now. Europe is just as much at fault when it comes to the formation of Israel. It was also european naitons that aided in Israel getting nukes, thats far bigger than selling them arms and planes

That's for another topic. But I want you to open it and explain me and others how Israel acquired nukes "with European" and not "with US and South African" cooperation.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!

Maju