US takes advantage of cartoon fiasco

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Originally posted by Maju (...) You're going too far. Here the only Hitler's Youth is those that leave their beards long and rush to kill anyone who has criticisms to do to Islam. Maju, I'm not going to far at all. By defending the right to publish those pictures, you are defending the right to promote intolerance, racism, persecution, prejudice and propaganda. You are promoting and encoraging people to spread hatred, and this makes you an accomplice to those crimes.

Yes: I risk peaceful expression of "intolerance" in exchange of no violent expression of the same thing. Individual people can be intolerant, that's their problem... as long as they don't break the limit: that is they don't resort to violence.

In this sense, you can see cartoons and such as a safety valve.

Originally posted by Maju Sorry but there's a major problem here: nobody inside an Islamic nation 8at least most of them) can make any criticism to religion. Is that my fault? No it's Islam's fault. Have you ever lived in a muslim nation Maju? I think you would be surprised. Besides, those cartoons have nothing at all to do with critising religion, they just spread intolerance, racism, persecution, prejudice and propaganda.

I have stayed for short periods in Muslim countries and I have got people of Muslim background living in my home. No problem.

But when you start discussing the existence of God or the legitimity of the king in Morocco... some leave due to fear.

In Morocco trains must stop when the king travels.

Morocco is a nice country with very nice people for the most part, but they are just coming out of "the Middle Ages".

Originally posted by Maju So then there come so Viking dudes and do it. And all those people that can't rise their voice against Islam in their own nations are manipulated to rise their voice and make death threats against those poor Vikings that after all just were doing what you must to do yourselves and you don't dare to do. Where is Middle Eastern criticism of Islam?, where is Middle Eastern laicism?, where is Middle Eastern slef-caricature? It seems here you have seen a cause and not understood the effect. "manipulated to rise their voice" Manipulated by whom? Remember there is no Church structure in Islam,  the Imam of a mosque is the only religous figure most people see, and there is abosolutely no obligation to do what he says. A good Imam will always justify their arguements with Qu'ran and Hadis. Where is middle eastern laicism? Most people believe in Islam, most people want to be muslims, and for most people there is not an arguement in existance that can shake that belief. Your giving the impression that everyone would love to think like you if only they were free from oppressive religion. That impression is just plain ignorant. Bring forth your best arguements to convince us, but don't be surprised when we can shoot them down easily. I would quite love to get into a religous debate with you over this question.

What I say is that while, thanks to laicism, Muslim inmigrants can feel rather at home in Europe, where their religion is tolerated along with other sensibilities, Europeans can hardly feel at home in Muslim countries because of the closed mentality. The feeling in Europe is that the exchange is unfair: we give a lot and get nothing but problems. And we are not welcomed in Muslim nations (as residents) even a fraction of what Muslims are welcomed here.

With this I don't say that there are no integration problems but that there are many Muslim inmigrants in Europe and no or little European inmigrants in the Muslim world.

Christians for instance often complain that they are not allowed to do proselitism in Muslim nations (most of them at least), while Muslims are 100% free to do it in Europe.

There is an imbalance and that come from the fact tha Muslims seem to consider their religion over anything else. Demanding others waht they are not willing to give themselves. And that's not that way.

Originally posted by Maju It doesn't exist. And now, with the advenement of Internet age you can't anymore live in your bubble and you are faced with criticism. Sure that Rushdie or Hirsi don't live in Muslim nations aymore but sure that they are born there and that they have a Islamic background. Yet they need to be protected in the West. Why don't you step ahead and break a lance for Rushdie? Isn't he a Pakistani like yourself? Rushdie is an exception not a rule. I won't support someone just because they are a Pakistani. I make up my own mind who and what to follow and support, I don't blindly follow the beliefs of my forefathers. If I ever met Rushdie on a street, he would want to hope I don't have any sort of weapon.

Rushdie was an exception 15 years ago. Now it seems to be the rule. Any imam (probably a recent inmigrant who has studied in a fundamentalist madrasa and knows nothing about Europe) feels entitled now to issue fatwas against anyone and there seems to be a growing flock of fanatics willing to become martyrs and to kill some free thinker "kafir" or "apostate" for that purpose.

This is very serious because I can only think in two ways to solve it: Muslim communities cooperat with police in controlling and arresting these criminals... or the blame can fall on Muslims as a whole.

We are not talking about political violence, like attacking Israeli or US interests: we are talking about pure religious intolerance.

Anyhow, it is obvious that I'm discussing with someone that would be glad of committing that crime (killing Rushdie). Obviously there's nothing dto discuss after that: you are our enemy, you are an enemy of humankind and freedom.

Originally posted by Maju You must look inside, not outside. We are just showing your image in the mirror, even if distorted... it's you. I know who's image you are reflecting. And I am quite prepared to take on 'extremists' as you call them, have done a few times. But when I take them on, I can do it knowing that true Islam is not on their side. You may have said more in that sentence than you realise. Your an extremist too. "Our image" An extremist muslim will follow muslim tradition to the letter even if it ends up contradicting Islam itself. An extremist lacist, will fight for freedom of speech even if they destroy the reason it exists.

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Freedom of speech can be limited only by democratic means (though it's a dangerous issue): Parlament can pass laws and tribunals and governments can enforce them. Yet, with our culture, it's likely that if you forbid something you will soon have a mass of people breaking the prohibition... so better don't, and earn your respect in some other way than through coertion and blackmail.

Originally posted by Zagros these quasi terroists should be deported.  the police didn't do anything about these placards... disgrace. It was actually mostly muslims who complained to the police about these guys.

 

It is London, London is no longer a European city. Islam has taken roots in that city like no others. The british will appease those Islamist as long as they don't riot. They want to keep the appearance.  So the the parliament house will offend the muslim because it doesn't have the minarets.

I agree that the thread title is not put very well.

Make them fall into a trap of course.Have the extremists think they're going to fight the Europeans,but they are actually taking a ship to Antarctica,and have the Americans who want to have the Middle East a crater think they're going to the Middle East to nuke,but they are actually going to Antarctica.Simple as that really.You must have incentive to set a trap,or else,it wont incite anyone.

Originally posted by Maju Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Originally posted by Maju Originally posted by Omar al Hashim So, if what you claim is true. The you should be able to, if not understand, at least sympathise to why the cartoons have caused so much outrage. You won't impose your ideology by claiming free speech I've been saying since the very first moment that the cartoons are mostly crap. Yet crap has the right to be published. If someone "in my camp" for want of a better term, ever does something which crosses the line with you, I will be sure to condem them. (Such as burning an embassy or similar), If you come half-way, I will too "Crossing the line" is very subjective unless there is physical violence involved. It depends where do you want to put the line. But a cartoon is just a cartoon. And criticism of religion and religious figures, whatever Bush and the Pope say is legitimate. So while your being Originally posted by Maju I try to be open and exchange are your Originally posted by Maju I ma not promoting persecution: Originally posted by Maju I am not propagating racism You are quite happy to let other people do it for you, and happily put yourself between them and the provebial bullet (lets hope its just a proverb), to promote racism, persecution and prejudice. Just like Hitler Youth? No. You're going too far. Here the only Hitler's Youth is those that leave their beards long and rush to kill anyone who has criticisms to do to Islam.

Maju, I'm not going to far at all. By defending the right to publish those pictures, you are defending the right to promote intolerance, racism, persecution, prejudice and propaganda. You are promoting and encoraging people to spread hatred, and this makes you an accomplice to those crimes.

Originally posted by Maju Sorry but there's a major problem here: nobody inside an Islamic nation 8at least most of them) can make any criticism to religion. Is that my fault? No it's Islam's fault.

Have you ever lived in a muslim nation Maju? I think you would be surprised. Besides, those cartoons have nothing at all to do with critising religion, they just spread intolerance, racism, persecution, prejudice and propaganda.

Originally posted by Maju So then there come so Viking dudes and do it. And all those people that can't rise their voice against Islam in their own nations are manipulated to rise their voice and make death threats against those poor Vikings that after all just were doing what you must to do yourselves and you don't dare to do. Where is Middle Eastern criticism of Islam?, where is Middle Eastern laicism?, where is Middle Eastern slef-caricature?

It seems here you have seen a cause and not understood the effect.
"manipulated to rise their voice"
Manipulated by whom? Remember there is no Church structure in Islam,  the Imam of a mosque is the only religous figure most people see, and there is abosolutely no obligation to do what he says. A good Imam will always justify their arguements with Qu'ran and Hadis.
Where is middle eastern laicism? Most people believe in Islam, most people want to be muslims, and for most people there is not an arguement in existance that can shake that belief. Your giving the impression that everyone would love to think like you if only they were free from oppressive religion. That impression is just plain ignorant. Bring forth your best arguements to convince us, but don't be surprised when we can shoot them down easily. I would quite love to get into a religous debate with you over this question.

Originally posted by Maju It doesn't exist. And now, with the advenement of Internet age you can't anymore live in your bubble and you are faced with criticism. Sure that Rushdie or Hirsi don't live in Muslim nations aymore but sure that they are born there and that they have a Islamic background. Yet they need to be protected in the West. Why don't you step ahead and break a lance for Rushdie? Isn't he a Pakistani like yourself?

Rushdie is an exception not a rule. I won't support someone just because they are a Pakistani. I make up my own mind who and what to follow and support, I don't blindly follow the beliefs of my forefathers. If I ever met Rushdie on a street, he would want to hope I don't have any sort of weapon.

Originally posted by Maju You must look inside, not outside. We are just showing your image in the mirror, even if distorted... it's you.

I know who's image you are reflecting. And I am quite prepared to take on 'extremists' as you call them, have done a few times. But when I take them on, I can do it knowing that true Islam is not on their side.
You may have said more in that sentence than you realise. Your an extremist too. "Our image"
An extremist muslim will follow muslim tradition to the letter even if it ends up contradicting Islam itself.
An extremist lacist, will fight for freedom of speech even if they destroy the reason it exists.

arch buff, will you please change what you said at the end their. That is quite an insult to muslims. You know very well that everyone has their own opinions, just look at America, we always argue with each other over politics. Yet we don't kill each other, even those people in the picture a just a small group of people that you can not identify with a majority.

Sometimes I think Americans would understand differences better then others, but it's definitly not the truth, which is sad.

Originally posted by Zagros

 I can not begin to tell how angry this makes me feel! You know what these people remind me of, Chihuahas barking madly at a Rottweiler. This is the exact reason that some Americans would prefer to just make a crater out of the middle-east.

these quasi terroists should be deported.  the police didn't do anything about these placards... disgrace.

It was actually mostly muslims who complained to the police about these guys.

Originally posted by Maju Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Originally posted by Maju No. The diference is that I won't try to impose my ideology, I won't torture and I won't kill people because of their ethnicity or gender. But I will defend my freedom... by any means necessary. You just contradicted yourself in a sentance. Hitler was also defending his people freedom by any means necessary. Only a fascist can say that Hitler was defending his people's freedom. Hitler destroyed the freedom of Germans... he defended his megalomaniac plans and surely the interestst of German capital but not the freedoms of Germany. He attacked and destroyed them instead.

Exactly and your saying exactly the same thing just with a different Ideology.

Originally posted by Maju But I will defend my freedom... by any means necessary. I think that we must be merciless... our tolerance is being pushed to the limit, our benevolence and hospitality is being abused.

Originally posted by Maju They were personal attacks Maju, because I was critising your attitude, not anyone elses. If I included all europeans in that, I would be guily of what I'm preaching against. You are distorting my attitude and accusing me of things that I don't support. I also think that you should discuss the issue, not the person. Bacuse you don't know me.

This is probably a good point. Although your making it very easy for me

Unfortunately we will have to continue this tomorrow as I am going to bed


Edited by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by Maju Originally posted by Omar al Hashim So, if what you claim is true. The you should be able to, if not understand, at least sympathise to why the cartoons have caused so much outrage. You won't impose your ideology by claiming free speech I've been saying since the very first moment that the cartoons are mostly crap. Yet crap has the right to be published. If someone "in my camp" for want of a better term, ever does something which crosses the line with you, I will be sure to condem them. (Such as burning an embassy or similar), If you come half-way, I will too "Crossing the line" is very subjective unless there is physical violence involved. It depends where do you want to put the line. But a cartoon is just a cartoon. And criticism of religion and religious figures, whatever Bush and the Pope say is legitimate.

So while your being

Originally posted by Maju I try to be open and exchange

are your

Originally posted by Maju I ma not promoting persecution:

and

Originally posted by Maju I am not propagating racism

You are quite happy to let other people do it for you, and happily put yourself between them and the provebial bullet (lets hope its just a proverb), to promote racism, persecution and prejudice. Just like Hitler Youth?


Edited by Omar al Hashim