Ethnic Cleansing of Macedonia

Originally posted by Isokrates why did greek army burned half of western anatolia? reason should be  same Interesting statement when we could present a number of documents and quotes from people that lived it, all making reference to cleansing of the Hellines of Anatolia by Talaat among others..

My oldest uncle and my grandfather did fought during ww1 war first in the east front then in the west during pushing Greeks to the far west. They knows one thing very good that Afyon (province where im from) whas burnt by Greeks when they left, the bolvadin (a city inside afyon) libary wich had many old documents/books whas burnt when they reached it.

Those 2 survived the war but my grandfathers older bro's 5 sons where died during that war, they have even made a song-like poet for one of his brave son (mehmet cavus) wich still my father knows it.

No intention of sounding disrespectfull, but I find it hard to believe the 'version' presented by former military..
Not because they're Turkish, but because I think someone implicated in the battles simply can't be objective.
But wasn't Afyon used as Kemals headquarters in Aug. 1922, if so, there is no real posibility of the city being burnt to the ground is there ?

Anyway, I believe the question was about who burnt Smyrna. So under the logic I mentioned above, I'd honestly prefer to believe G. Horton, that tells us in his "The Blight of Asia" \ :

"I went up into the tower of the American College at Paradise, and, with a pair of field-glasses, could plainly see Turkish soldiers setting fire to houses. I could see Turks lurking in the fields, shooting at Christians. When I drove down to Smyrna from Paradise to Athens, there were dead bodies all along the road."

If you're interested you can read the whole book online HERE



Edited by Isokrates

Originally posted by Isokrates I never did mention VMOK or did I? If VMORO is so different than VRMO then the FYROMians have chosen a wrong person for their national hero in the face of Goce Delcev..thats for sure..

You mentioned something, which was neither VMORO, nor VMOK, but was much closer to VMOK. And btw there is no such thing as VRMO - there's VMORO (or IMARO on English), which later becomes VMRO (IMRO, not IRMO). Please, if you're going to write about it, at least learn how to write it right! Otherwise it's like saying UAS for the USA (meaning might be the same, but it's still different)...

P.S. Oh, and FYROMians have chosen many wrong things...

If you have actually been in Greece i would expect to write the greek name (the true one) of that city.

Why would I write the Greek name of a Turkish city?

The real picture isn't worst from other areas in the Greek statement

This is the real, true picture:

I hope the picture in the rest of Greece 'statement' isn't the same with it.

I challenge you to give me an example

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/greece/

Human rights report. Enough?

The tortures in Thessalonica was also very widespread

Why would Turks torture their loyal inhabitants of Salonika? The main majority was Turks before the Balkan wars and the population exchange as we all know. Salonika was a Macedonian origined city, inhabited mostly by Turks and then Jews.

Interesting statement when we could present a number of documents and quotes from people that lived it, all making reference to cleansing of the Hellines of Anatolia by Talaat among others..

Greeks also burned Afyon, Kutahya, Aydin and most of western Anatolia just like they burned Izmir. And the period we are talking about is later than the Greek claims of ethnic cleansing. Even the Greek president of the invasion time, Venezilos accepted it and apoligized for it.

But as Isocrates said, lets just discuss about the ethnic cleansing of Macedonia, and forget about this debate now.

 

Edited by Bashibozuk

Continue  my post and the Bulgarian efforts of the Ethnical cleansing in Greek Macedonia I want to show photos from the WWII period and specially under the ocuppation from the fascists. The pictures show Slavmacedonians supporters of the Unity Idea of Macedonia (Greek, Serbia) in Bulgaria

 

Picture from Kastoria (Greek Macedonia). In the picture are Hitler anf Bulgarian king Borida. The people are Slavmacedonians supporters of Bulgarian VMRO

Picture from Monastirion (Vardar Macedonia) in FYROM.

Picture from Scopjie

The Bulgarians  transfered  a lot of public employees in order to change the demographic status in Greek Macedonia. Except the Greeks and Jews also and the billiteral Greeks (Slavphones Greeks) suffered a lot of these actions.

The effort continue and with the collapse of the axon via Commitern (Yugoslav and Bulgarian Communist  Partizans) during Greek civil war.

 

Edited by akritas

You believe that i am an idiot right?

Where did you get this from?

Look "dude" give me the greek name of the city that you have actually been

Xanthi, Komotini, Thesellanoiki, Athens, Pireus and others that I am not able to spell right now.

you must be banned and ashamed for that photo

I am not the one who should be ashamed for that photo.

By the way, if you idn't understand the meaning of the photo, let me clear it. It is a poster placed on the wall of a Turkish mosque in Iske�e, as you call Ksanthi. It is no propoganda.

Please do give us the exact numbers in Konstantinoupoli, Smyrni

In Istanbul, there aren't much Rums left after the happennings of 1955.  In Izmir, there are still Rums around, but not much after the population exchanges between Turkey and Greece.

especially Imvros and Tenedos

The number of Greeks left there isn't more than the number of Turks left in Crete and Rhodes after the population exchange. And of course in Midilli, the home of Cemal Pasha, one of the three leaders of CUP.

you know the islands in which prison inmates were allowed to roam the islands freely and murder several of the inhabitants

Never heard of that before.

Dobkin, Marjorie Housepian

Wasn't she the Armenian writer who claimed 100 thousand Greeks died in Izmir even an anti-Turkish person like George Horton claims the number of casualties were around 1000-2000? Really reliable.She also claimed two million Armenians suffered from the socalled Armenian genocide when it is proven that even the total Armenian population after the Treaty of Aya Stefanos was around 1,3 million.

Her ideas about Bosnians and the Bosnian genocide aren't more reliable than these.

George Horton and Mark Prentiss wrote about the Greek invaders arming the civilians and sending Turks out of the city, or according to some authors, simply massacring them.I suggest you to read the quotes from Paul Grescovich, the fire chief of the city. It is wrong to quote them all in here, but a small research would help.

Never, heard anything similar to this before

Similarly, Aksehir near Konya was also burned by the Greek army. It is known that these cities were rebuilt after the Turkish liberation. That is why Venizelos paid compensation to Turkey in 1923 for the horrific atrocities committed against the Turkish civilians in western Turkey.

By the way, if you idn't understand the meaning of the photo, let me clear it. It is a poster placed on the wall of a Turkish mosque in Iske�e, as you call Ksanthi. It is no propoganda.

I've personally been to Ksanthi several times and can assure you that the mosques are very well kept and literally beautiful buildings...
.
If you really believe the building presented in the pic, is a mosque.. What can I say, you obviously don't have the best of ideas for those that share (probably) your religious beliefs..
I can honestly tell you though, that if I was a Muslim from Ksanthi, I'd find such pics, pics that present a dump as the place where I pay my respects and practice my religion for propaganda puposes, highly offensive..
Do a simple google for 'Ksanthi mosque" and you'll see all those beautiful buildings in which they really practice their religion in..

he number of Greeks left there isn't more than the number of Turks left in Crete and Rhodes after the population exchange. And of course in Midilli, the home of Cemal Pasha, one of the three leaders of CUP.

In order for us to be able to communicate, you have to use the correct names of the areas or at least those used in the signed treaties..
I honestly have no idea where "Midilli" is..

Comparing the situation of the islands of Imvros and Tenedos to any other area is totally incorrect, not to mention re-writes history and the Treaty of Lausanne..

-------------------------
" ARTICLE 14.

The islands of Imbros and Tenedos, remaining under Turkish sovereignty, shall enjoy a special administrative organisation composed of local elements and furnishing every guarantee for the native non-Moslem population in so far as concerns local administration and the protection of persons and property. The maintenance of order will be assured therein by a police force recruited from amongst the local population by the local administration above provided for and placed under its orders.

The agreements which have been, or may be, concluded between Greece and Turkey relating to the exchange of the Greek and Turkish populations will not be applied to the inhabitants of the islands of Imbros and Tenedos.

Source:
http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918p/lausanne.html"
-------------------------------

Never heard of that before.

You did manage to find a Human Rights article about Hellas, why was this so difficult .. anyway..

------------------------
They expropriated the best properties, without compensation, in order to deprive the residents of their means of survival.
Greeks who traveled abroad were not allowed to return and their property was confiscated.
They forbade the teaching of the Greek language.
Imvros was converted into a prison without walls for convicted Turkish felons who terrorized the Greek residents.
Using such dreadful measures, the Turks managed to bring decay to the way of life of the Greek inhabitants and they thought that they would enjoy the fruits of their crimes in perpetuity.

Source:
http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Turkish.php
-----------------------------

Wasn't she the Armenian writer who claimed ........... ...... but a small research would help.

What should I say about your juging a source by nationality and strictly on that.. while I find it extremely hard not to, I won't use the 'R' word..

Note that not only was she a highly respected Prof. at Barnard Uni. but her book was called one of the 100 most notable books of 1972 by the New York Times and 'Book of the Year' by London's Sunday Times and which was recently re-published and "The Unremembered Genocide" which appeared in Genocide and Human Rights: A Global Anthology (1981).
I sure that any scholar of her undoubtable value is entitled to be judged on something more than just her nationality..

Since you mention research, didn't 'Tall Armenian Tale' (since they conveniently use Prentiss as an argument) inform its readers that Mark Prentiss has been recorded saying :
""Many of us personally saw-and are ready to affirm the statement-Turkish soldiers often directed by officers throwing petroleum in the streets and houses."

And that he is just one of several that were recorded to conveniently change their original recorded statements.. for example, Major Davis admits being ordered to change his statement and later say that he never saw Turkish soldiers pouring petrol on houses..

By the way, also connected to research....
 The numbers mention in Horton's book are far different to what you present.. I do expect a quote in support of your claims since Horton estimated that the deaths were over 100.000..

That is why Venizelos paid compensation to Turkey in 1923 for the horrific atrocities committed against the Turkish civilians in western Turkey.

Firstly, there is no such term as 'horrific attrocities' in the Lausanne Treaty.. The exact terminology is :

----------------------
The Greek Government undertakes to pay to the nationals of the other contracting Powers and to Turkish companies in which, on the 1st June, 1921, the interests of the latter were preponderant, in a proportion corresponding to those interests, the sums which are due to them for the repayment of the value of goods requisitioned or seized by the Greek armies or administrative authorities, the sums due for services rendered to those armies and authorities which have not already been paid, as well as those due as compensation for other losses and damage suffered after the 1st June, 1921, by the said nationals and companies, resulting from the acts of the Greek armies or administrative authorities, other than loss and damage due to acts of war in the zone of active military operations. "

Source:
www.stradigma.com
--------------------------

Finally, who ever told you that there was a compensation paid ???
There wasn't a single cent given ever...

It is well know, that Hellas didn't have the economic ability to cover for the payments, Turkey didn't presure for the amount to be paid (the patern, no payment - nobel peace prize is evident) and in addition England, France and the US having acomplished the terms they wanted.. see OIL in Mozouli (no idea what you call it now) and Cyprus, abandoned their right of compensation and so did Turkey under their pressure.
The only thing that could be considered as a 'payment' is the exchange of Turkey dropping all compensation rights for  Karaagac..




Edited by Isokrates

you obviously don't have the best of ideas for those that share (probably) your religious beliefs

I do, but this is not funny since I am not kind of the extreme nationalists who like to put porn photos on religious shrines, but some Greek fanatics are. Assimilation policies of Greece are still in progress.

"The government�s refusal to accept the minority�s Turkish identity has ranged from banning civic organizations bearing the adjective �Turkish� in their titles to prosecuting individuals who publicly identified the minority as �Turkish.�Greek courts have outlawed the use of the word "Turkish" to describe the Turkish minority. In November 1987, the Greek High Court affirmed a 1986 decision by the Court of Appeals of Thrace in which the Union of Turkish Teachers of Western Thrace and the Union of Turkish Youth of Komotini were dissolved. The court held that the word "Turkish" referred to citizens of Turkey and could not be used to describe citizens of Greece, and that the use of the word "Turkish" to describe Greek Muslims endangered public order. More recently, in August 1996, Mr. Rasim Hid, a teacher at a minority primary school, was transferred by the state-appointed secretary general of the region from the city of Xanthi to a mountain region of Rodopi for using the term �Turkish school� in a teachers� meeting. In June 1997, twelve ethnic Turkish teachers were given a suspended sentence of eight months, pending appeal, because they signed a union document that included the term, �Turkish Teachers of Western Thrace.�They had been indicted under Articles 188 (�participating in an association the aims of which are contrary to criminal provisions�) and 192 (�inciting citizens to commit acts of violence upon each other�) of the Greek Penal Code."

Source: http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/greece/

This is not the whole issue now. The selection of "muftis" and the religious rights of Turks are still not respected.

The original article, different from the one in the website called "stradigma" in your reply where you presented it as a source, it says:

Article 38:

�All inhabitants...shall be entitled to free exercise, whether in public or private, of any creed, religion or belief, the observance of which shall not be incompatible with public order and good morals.� Article 40 further outlines the right of the Muslim minority to exercise their religion: �In particular, they shall have an equal right to establish, manage and control at their own expense, any charitable, religious and social institutions, any schools and other establishments for instruction and education, with the right to use their own language and to exercise their own religion freely therein.�

In the Treaty of Athens of November 1913, it was allowed muftis to be elected by the Muslim population. Greek Law No. 2345 of 1920, which regulated matters pertaining to the mufti and the vakiflar (private charitable foundations), did so as well. Under Article 6 of Law No. 2345, the muftis were to be elected by the Muslim population after a list of candidates had been approved by both the head mufti, the Ministry of Religious Affairs, and the governor general and/or prefect of the region.

Source: -Human Rights Watch-

But today, the muftis are picked by the Greek government. I wonder what would happen if the patrick of Fener was appointed by Turkey. We also shouldn't forget about the happennings of 1988-89. If you do a little research about the violations of fundemental human rights of ethnic Turks in Western Thrace, you'll find lots of more photos of attacked mosques instead of beautiful grass and clouds of love.

no idea where "Midilli" is

It is understood how much you know about your country. Anyway, it is called the island of "Lesbos".

They expropriated the best properties, without compensation, in order to deprive the residents of their means of survival. Greeks who traveled abroad were not allowed to return and their property was confiscated.

A hard claim, and a hard resource though. From a website which sells "Turkish denial T-sirts"...

What should I say about your juging a source by nationality and strictly on that

Well, if you dared to quote the rest of the statement, you would easily understand that I said the Armenian writer who claimed about 2 million Armenians suffering from a so called Armenian Genocide when the total Ottoman Armenian population was about 1,290,000. But anyway, fine way of distort my original point.

Firstly, there is no such term as 'horrific attrocities' in the Lausanne Treaty..

It shouldn't write the same statement in the treaty to make people realize that burning a couple of towns as a whole is a horrific thing, causing horrifing attrocities.

And the former Greek president of the time, Venizelos apoligized about these attrocities, so no need for further discussions.

Edited by Bashibozuk

I do, but this is not funny since I am not kind of the extreme nationalists who like to put porn photos on religious shrines, but some Greek fanatics are. Assimilation policies of Greece are still in progress.

Nationalist.. big word from someone that presents a barn or a abandoned warehouse as a mosque..
Porn ????
Is that what they tell you in T.A.T ???
Safe Sex is the title of a movie, that became a TV series. Its actually pure comedy.. also presented in some festival in Melbourne.. google for it

But the very fact that the barn has a bulletin-board specifically put up for posters PROVES that you're just another victim of the vicious propaganda released by several sites..

Didn't you stop and think just for a min' what the hell is a bulletin-board doing on the wall of a mosque ????
Nationalism obviously blinds some of us...

The original article, different from the one in the website called "stradigma" in your reply where you presented it as a source, it says/QUOTE] You got things all mixed up, the link I gave is related to the 'compensation and not to the rights.. But today, the muftis are picked by the Greek government. I wonder what would happen if the patrick of Fener was appointed by Turkey. Appointed by the Turkish goverment, why exactly ?? Does the Patriarch preform any civil service, like judge for example. The mufti of Thrace is also a civil servant, while the Patriarch is purely religious. Besides, there are many accounts throughout history of muftis being appointed. example : In Cyprus the British with the Ottomans appointed the mufti,  in Jerusalem Haj Mohammed Effendi Amin el-Husseiniwas appointed by Sir Herbert Samuel  , the government appointed mufti of Syria Ahmad Kuftaro, in Egypt  Shaykh Muhammad Nasr Farid appointed by the goverment with the well known Satanist scandal..... etc To top it all off, I recall reading that Ibn Nabidin recognized the right of Christian states to appoint the mufti the cadi and the governor.. Besides, the history of the minority in Thrace, allows the Hellinic goverment to be sceptical and cautious about who does what. Let me just remind you that the pogrom of 55' began by the activities of members of the minority in Thrace.. It is understood how much you know about your country. Anyway, it is called the island of "Lesbos" How much I know... OK, as you wish.. I never knew that I'm supposed to know what every area of my country is called in each language, what name anyone applies other than the original. Anyway, the correct spelling is �������� or as seen in Latin font Mytilene.. by the way, �������� is just the capital and not the whole island.. A hard claim, and a hard resource though. From a website which sells "Turkish denial T-sirts".. Seems like someone needs to look into his history again From  a French travel guide Le gouvernement trouva plusieurs méthodes pour se débarrasser des orthodoxes de l�île. La première fut d�installer une prison ouverte où les prisonniers pouvaient se balader librement la journée et violenter la population des villages. http://www.istanbulguide.net/ [QUOTE]It shouldn't write the same statement in the treaty to make people realize that burning a couple of towns as a whole is a horrific thing, causing horrifing attrocities.

The point wasn't to use the exact terminology, but that you are exagerrating. When I said there is no such term I wanted to point that untill now all we have is your word against official documents that mention no such thing..

As for Venizelos, that clearly shows the difference in the man.
Kemal and the Turkish goverment in general have been recorded to have preformed 'horrific attrocities' (to use your own terms) yet not only never apologize but deny them to have ever happened. While they continue to pour hatred in the minds of the Turkish youth by errecting monuments such as those in Afyonkarahisar..
While the other asked for an apology for whatever had taken place.

Some more images from the era:

The Greek army advancing against the Turks or in more colorful language
(Greek hords descending upon Macedonia



Non-combatant Bulgarians slaughtered at Kilkis (1913, 3000 civilians murdered)




Edited by bg_turk