Topic: Ethnic Cleansing of Macedonia Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 01:45
I don't know how accurate this map is, Maju. Even if it's from an independent source, every map that depicts ethnic composition of this region at that time should be treated with caution, I think. For example, the composition in Southern Macedonia (nowadays Greece) doesn't seem quite right to me, since we are talking about 1923. The same goes for the Smyrna region, unless the map accounts for the 1923 population transfers between Greece and Turkey. For Cyprus and Pontic Greeks I am not surprised at all.
Your posts came from the Carnegie Endowment. And you cutting quotes is unfair against of the Commission job, and as Greek I believed was neutral. The Commision speak for Thrace and Macedonia.I am staying in your thread.
Lets see what was the ethnography of the Macedonia. The terms Aegean, Vardar, PirinMacedonia were not exists pro-WWII. The commission speaks for Macedonia and for Greek and Serbian. Is known that the Bulgaria Macedonian part consider as part of Thrace.
The rival claims to Macedonia might be summed up under the following main heads:-
(1) "Historical rights" to the possession of Macedonia, acquired by Simeon the Bulgarian or Douchan the Servian. (Tenth or fourteenth century.)
(2) Resemblance in customs (above all those pertaining to the Fete of New Year's Day-the Slava, claimed by the Servians as the sign of their nationality).
(3) Religion-exarchist or patriarchist.
(4) The spoken language.
[Carnegie Endowment Report, pages 26-27]
At the pages 28-30 we have three statistics that have a known trait. They dont agree.
BULGARIAN STATISTICS (Mr. Kantchev, 1900)
Turks 499,204
Bulgarians 1,181,336
Greeks 228,702
Albanians 128,711
Wallachians 80,767
Jews 67,840
Gypsies 54,557
Servians 700
Miscellaneous 16,407
Total 2,258,224
SERVIAN STATISTICS (Mr. Gopcevic, 1889) [Recent Servian authorities avoid giving general figures or else, like Mr. Guersine, suggest a total for the Macedonian Slav population which approximates more closely to Mr. Kantchev's figures.]
Turks 231,400
Bulgarians 57,600
Greeks 201,140
Albanians 165,620
Wallachians 69,665
Jews 64,645
Gypsies 28,730
Servians 2,048,320
Miscellaneous 3,500
Total 2,870,620
GREEK STATISTICS (Mr. Delyani, 1904)
(Kosovo vilayet omitted)
Turks 634,017
Bulgarians 332,162
Greeks 652,795
Albanians
Wallachians 25,101
Jews 53,147
Gypsies 8,911
Servians
Miscellaneous 18,685
Total 1,724,818
But what happened before the balkans wars, something that you forget to said.
In early 1890's various Bulgarian groups were organized in the Ottoman empire advocating a more revolutionary program in Macedonia that would result in the Bulgarization of the area. One such group was IMRO (Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization) which was organized around 1893 and whose members included Gotse Deltchev, Damjan Grujev, Pere Tochev, Petar Pop Arsov, and other Bulgarians from Bulgaria and San-Stefano ``Macedonia''. This organization aimed at uniting ``Macedonia'', by any possible means, into a single entity.
In response to this, Macedonians(Greek and Billiteral speakers), with financial help from their kinship in then Greece and also from abroad, organized themselves and tried to protect the Greek-speaking and Bulgar-speaking Greek-Macedonian, and especially those living small villages, from Bulgarian abuses. Wherever this was not possible and especially in areas where Bulgars were the majority, as it was the case in the north and central part of today's FYROM, it was common to have a member of a family declaring himself a Bulgar and another one declaring himself a Greek. Whole Greek villages, when under pressure from Bulgars, used to declare themselves Bulgarian to avoid destruction from the Bulgars.
In the beginning of the 20th century, when the situation got worse, both sides (Greek and Bulgarian) went many times to extremes although one may observe that the Bulgarian side was mainly responsible for that. At the same time the consciousness of the few Serbs living in San-Stefano ``Macedonia'' (in today's FYROM) was also awakened and Serbia got involved into these rivalries as well.
The Balkan Wars erupted because of these rivalries.
The excesses of the Greek army began on July 4 with the first conflict at Kukush (Kilkish). A few days later the excesses of the Bulgarians at Doxato (July 13), Serres (July 11), and Demir-Hissar (July 7) were known and still further inflamed the anger of the Greeks. On July 12 King Constantine announced in a dispatch which reported the slaughter at Demir-Hissar that he "found himself obliged with profound regret to proceed to reprisals." A comparison of dates will show that the Greek "reprisals" had begun some days before the Bulgarian "provocation."
[Carnegie Endowment Report, pages 97]
As you see in a war nobody is an angel. This is the reason that nobody wants nationalistic ideas.I ll stay in the lesson that mention the report:
The real culprits in this long list of executions, assassinations, drownings, burnings, massacres and atrocities furnished by our report, are not, we repeat, the Balkan peoples. Here pity must conquer indignation. Do not let us condemn the victims. Nor are the European governments the real culprits. They at least tried to amend things and certainly they wished for peace without knowing how to establish it. The true culprits are those who mislead public opinion and take advantage of the people's ignorance to raise disquieting rumors and sound the alarm bell, inciting their country and consequently other countries into enmity. The real culprits are those who by interest or inclination, declaring constantly that war is inevitable, end by making it so, asserting that they are powerless to prevent it. The real culprits are those who sacrifice the general interest to their own personal interest which they so little understand, and who hold up to theircountry a sterile policy of conflict and reprisals. In reality there is no salvation, no way out either for small states or for great countries except by union and conciliation.
[Carnegie Endowment Report, page 19]
We must Keep this in our mind. That any war there are victims and usually innocent victims
It's curious to see that the Smyrna region appers mostly Turk but Cyprus 100% Greek. It's also curious to see the many Pontic Greeks and Kosova already largely Albanian.
It is really a painful topic. The ethnic structure of Ottoman lands were unfortunately very complex and mixed. The Wilson laws, which ordered nations to dominate in lands where they were a majority couldn't work for the middle East and the Balkans because they were simply based on western ideology and ethnic.
Different societies, religious groups have lived together in much Ottoman cities from Bosnia to Iraq. That's why setting definate borders was impossible for any of these nations sharing these lands. This caused minorities and local authorities (such as the "miri" authorities around northern tigris) to conflict each other for ethnical domination, causing ethnic cleansing.
You can't set a definate border for Armenians because they were spread from central Anatolia to Georgia, but most cities (especially ones around euphrates) were multinational as seen in the map. Turks were spread from Macedonia and Albania to Northern Iraq but definate borders were nonexistant.
And in the British map you gave, Kurdish expansion is clearly exaggerated. Eastern lands of the empire were home to Armenians and Turks in general. Kurds were mostly around Tigris (Diyarbakir was the Northern lands, north of it- Harpot was mainly Turkish. East of it was mainly Armenian. the region around Euphrates was known to be mainly Turkish and south is Arabic (around Urfa and Mardin) until 60s when the main Kurdish immigrations to urban areas began to occur. East of Erzurum was mainly Armenian, and south of it too. But the region around Erzurum and Erzincan were a total mix where two societies had no ethnic boundaries at all. Izmir, was a dominantly Rum city until the city was burnt by the Greek army and the population exchanges.
Cities of modern Turkey:
The population of the vilayets of Erzurum and Van are given below:
The total population of the sanjaks of Bayburt, Malazgirt, Mu, Bitlis, Van was 2,70,000. 365,000 was living under Russian invaded lands. The rest are around 1,710,000
The results of Ottoman official census, patriarch census and Lynch census shows us that,
Armenians- 1,150,000
Turks- 400,000
Nomadic Kurds- 80,000
Zaza and Dimbiliks- 35,000
Sun worshipper and Yezidi- 13,000
Gypsies- 3000
Rum and Jews- 5000
Assyrians- 14,000
And about the city of Diyarbakir in southeastern Turkey near Tigris:
Sanjak of Kharput, northwest of Diyarbakir, Sanjak of Ergani, Sanjak of Siirt:
The populations of ethnics in these cities of emikezek, Palu, and Siirt are below:
Armenian- 180,000
Turkish- 130,000
Nomadic Kurd- 40,000
Zaza- 2,300
Yezidi- 2000 Chaldean/Assyrian- 8000
These aren't my numbers, but numbers from archieves and Armenian patriarch.
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Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 10:04
I am here to express my opinion not to back any country. Yes I am a
turk and in Bulgaria I am free to call myself a Turk, unlike in some
other countries may I note. yep you have an axe to grind. Will you show the same concern on ethnic cleansing extend to other threads and topics?
Any turk that remains in greece did so on the conditions agreed to by the Turkish republic if you have a problem with that, then petition them to renegiotiate. you want to talk about the muslims in thraki here is the thread
"Well I originally intended the topic to be the ethnic cleansing of
slavs from Macedonia only, but we can extend it to all the non-greeks
of Macedonia inlcuding Turks. Yet, it must be noted that the ethnic
cleansing of the Turkish people is not nerely as dramatic as that of
the slavic people since turks were a small minority in the region."
If your sources are just bulgarian and slavic, mix it with some other selectively cut articles (thanks Akritas) then hell yeah you got some good greek bashing going on.
on the subject of Ethnic cleansing of non greeks in macedonia dont forget the jews, Thessalonika had a very large jewish population, they where ethnically cleansed by the nazi's, allies of bulgaria. Bulgaria didnt have as hard a go on their own jewish minorities, but didnt do to much for the jews in any part of bulgarian occupied yugoslavia and thraki.
Lets look at the slavs Some of the massacres of the slavs went a little further back than the balkans wars, we can go back to April uprisings 1876 and start there, to be fair to you i will use bulgarian and other slavic sources ok?
Batak is the most well known event
"They saw the town with not a roof left, with women here and there wailing their dead amid
the ruins. They examined the heap and found that the skulls and skeletons were all small
and that the clothing was that of women and girls. MacGahan counted a hundred skulls
immediately around him. The skeletons were headless, showing that these victims had been
beheaded. Further on they saw the skeletons of two little children lying side by side with
frightful sabre cuts on their little skulls. MacGahan remarked that the number of children
killed in these massacres was something enormous. They heard on trustworthy authority from
eye-witnesses that they were often spiked on bayonets. There was not a house beneath the
ruins of which he and Mr. Schuyler did not see human remains, and the streets were strewn
with them. When they drew nigh the church they found the ground covered with skeletons and
lots of putrid flesh. In the church itself the sight was so appalling that I do not care
to reproduce the terrible description given by Mr. MacGahan."source
from a population of 9,000 culled to 1,800 , some bulgarian sources on the church and figures here the overall death toll for the broader uprising was around 30,000 in this source
it didnt end there as you mentioned refugees many started coming in during the rebellions before the balkans war, during the fighting with the turks.
"In late 1878, a provisional Bulgarian government
and armed uprisings had already surfaced in the Kresna and Razlog
regions of Macedonia. These uprisings were quelled swiftly by the
Turks with British support. During the next twenty-five years,
large numbers of Bulgarians fled Macedonia into the new Bulgaria,
and secret liberation societies appeared in Macedonia and Thrace.
One such group, the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization
(IMRO), continued terrorist activities in the Balkans into the
1930s.
" source
SlavoMacedonian memories of the 1903 Ilinden uprising
"Once Krushevo fell, one by one other IMRO
strongholds began to yield winding down
the ten-week-old rebellion. In Krushevo
Baktiar Pasha allowed his troops to kill,
pillage and rape for three days, permanently
devastating the town. 117 civilians were
murdered, 150 women were raped and 159 houses
were burned.
In the Ilinden aftermath, according to Radin,
in total 4,694 civilians were murdered,
3,122 women were raped, 12,440 houses were
burned, 201 villages were razed, 75,835
people were left homeless and about 30,000
people left the country for good becoming
permanent refugees (page 105, IMRO and the
Macedonian Question). Besides the atrocities
committed against the civilian population
in Macedonia, the most significant impact
of the uprising was the loss of so many
great IMRO leaders."source
from the village of brajcino "All the people of Brajcino, from the youngest to the oldest, took part in the
Ilinden Uprising. Some of them armed themselves and became guerrilla fighters, while others
deserted the Turkish army. There were many casualties: women were raped, children were massacred,
men were beheaded. Armed resistance against the Ottoman rule began in Brajcino in 1880, when
Spiro Kozhov killed a Turkish soldier and took to the mountains as a rebel. "
Ottomon police leading IMRO (originally Pro Bulgarian slav) activists here in thessaloniki
geez and this all happened before the greeks were are force in the region.......
I find at least pathetic to read selective copy/pastes from another nationalistic site (http://www.macedoniainfo.com/macedonia/ ) and obviously anti-greek, if we keep in mind some of the colorful messages the site has.
For example, "Macedonia is not Greek. The official Greek politics try to erase Bulgarian Macedonian Culture and History from Macedonia. "
"Greece is an unworthy European Union Member - 26.02.1999"
"Modern "ethnic cleansing" against the macedonian minority of Greece"
In addition to that, the author decided not to post even the source of his copy/pastes, despite the forum policy but i dont wonder why anymore.
If I was on the same one-sided collection of articles i would simply post everything found from the diplomatic documents on Iliden uprising which is really enlightening about the activities of Bulgarian comitates against populations of Macedonia nomatter of ethnicity/religion. One sample of it you can read it here.
i)
Note by the Imperial Ottoman Embassy in Paris to the French Foreign Office
Paris, August 10, 1903 Source: French Foreign Office Archives,Turkey-Macedonia, vol 35, p. 230
The Bulgarians gathered in large numbers at Kleisoura and its suburbs have occupied the villages of Djivarek in the Kesrie administrative region, have assasinated all the Muslim inhabitants, women and children, and burnt down their houses. They are currently fiercely attacking the remaining villages in the area, were they already captured a big number of inhabitants. Some of these poor people have been burnt alive. The greek and the muslim poulations are terrified after this terrible slaugtering.
In the suburbs of Monastir, Bulgarian bandits have burnt 8 barns, in 8 different farms, with all the cereals that had been stored there. These violent attacks, during which the muslim villages in the Resna and Persie regions have been attacked, have terrified the Muslims. In the Ochrida region the postman from Janina has been encyrcled by the Bulgarian bandits and a big number of items belonging to Muslims have been burnt by Bulgarian crooks.
or maybe this one
ii) From Austrian consul August Kral to the head of the ( Foreign Office Count Agenor von Goluchowski
Monastir, March 11, 1903 Source: Austrian Foreign Office Archives,
Monastir 1903, vol 392
Hochkgeborener Graf, your Highness the Count
The Comitate with unspeakable audacity blackmails economically Bulgarians, Greeks, Wallachs, Christians and Muslims. In case of refusal to pay, the Christians are threatened with murder, and the rich, armed and guarded muslim landowners are threatened with the burning down of their fields. In gathering the money the comitates do not discriminate between the Christians, because, as they assert, their efforts aim to the amendment of the situation of all Christians of Macedonia. The amount of the money requested depends on individual income, but the Comitate is debatable in some special cases. The amount of the contributions varies between 5 and 100 Turkish pounds, some rare times even more. In the Perlepe region, where the Muslims are a minority, each and every Aga has to pay, the same for most Greeks ( i.e. the Wallachs) from Monastiri and the vlach villages, like Gopes, Mollovista, Tirnovo, Krushevo etc. The comitates have won over, often with by the means of threats, a number of families in the above non-Bulgarian small towns. The comitates need such pied-a-terre in important small towns, that, overmore, being non-Bulgarian appear less suspect to the Turks. The continuing and phenomenal in pressure blackmails, have attenuated to the maximum the anxiety of the non-Bulgarian populations, mainly of the Greeks. Fear dominates everywhere. Noone dares to resist. In this state of terror anyone feels the lack of protection to which he is exposed because of the incompetence, the feableness and the corruption of the turkish administration. There is a strong desire for the regularisation of the situation, which is unbearable, and the need for a new, strong government. I have already stated that the population does not want reforms or autonomy, the majority of the Macedonians want nothing more than the fate of Bosnia.
You can go in circles and play the old childish game of "your grandfather killed more than my grandfather" but this really doesnt lead anywhere. Fact is there have been attrocities from all sides but blaming only one and turn a blind eye to the rest makes you lose all credibility.
The only thing i will agree is that the book of Anastasia Karakasidou is a great book for everyone to read.
Edited by Perseas
A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
Perseas I agree with you as about Karakasidou book.
In Greece we had a lot of war as about this book. But when I read it , I realize that this book was and is against in any nationalistic behavior against of all sides. I ll stay in this
"They were not Slavs all the Slavphones of Macedonia"
[Introduction, page 68, Greek edition]
This quote from her describe many of the origin of the Slavspeakers in Macedonia
According to the Treaty of Neilly(1919),after the WW1, an exchange of
population was agreed between Greece and Bulgaria on the fate of the
Bulgarians of Macedonia/Greece and of the Greeks of Bulgaria.
92.000 Bulgarians of Greece went to Bulgaria and
46.000 Greeks of Bulgaria went to Greece
The numbers were not equal but this is the case always when a country
is defeated in war.Bulgaria was defeated twice,once during the Balkan
wars against the coalition of Greece-Serbia-Romania and once during the
WW1.
The same happened to Greece when she was defeated in Asia Minor by the
Turks so according to the Treaty of Lausanne the Greek refugees
from Turkey were at least three times more than the Muslims of Greece
that went to Turkey.
Vae victus
According to the League of Nations/Societe des Nations(Greek Refugee
Settlement,Genova 1926) the demographics of Macedonia in 1912 were:
Greeks 513.000
Muslims 475.000
Bulgarians 119.000
Jewish population and others 98.000
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Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 21:33
I agree its pathetic. I went out to prove how easy it is to demonise one side. Its so easy I can go to non-greek, (FROMian or bulgarian) websites and look at excesses conducted by ottomons on slavic speakers.
If BG Turk wants to talk to about the slavic deaths then we can look at that subject in a broader scope (in time and space) that he purposely misses and see if he is fair in his commentary(cut and paste). I didnt want to fire up about greek deaths, it would be just as easy to talk of muslim crimes within he's conveniant subject matter -ethnic cleansing of non greeks.
What i resent the most from BG's take on the history, is this purposeful one sided demonising. Especially in those days there were so many victims and criminals from all sides. I personally fully agree with "The
real culprits in this long list of executions, assassinations,
drownings, burnings, massacres and atrocities furnished by our report,
are not, we repeat, the Balkan peoples....." and the rest of the article's conclusions posted by akritas.
.... Izmir, was a dominantly Rum city until the city was burnt by the Greek army and the population exchanges.
You are mistaken, the city of Smyrna was burnt by the Turkish irregulars under the supervision of the Turkish army
@bg_Turk
As far as i remember the Turkish Ottoman army commited
atrocities in Bulgaria in 1876 and 10.000-12.000 Bulgarians
are estimated to have died at that time.Maybe you should speak about
them..
@bg_Turk As far as i remember the Turkish Ottoman army commited atrocities in Bulgaria in 1876 and 10.000-12.000 Bulgarians are estimated to have died at that time.Maybe you should speak about them..
Yes, there was a rebellion in Bulgarian in 1876, which failed and the ottoman crackdown on it was especially brutal. It was called the April uprising. I studied it in history, and I am not mistaken the title of the lesson was "Genocide against the Bulgarian People".
The brutality of the events of 1876 leas to an international outcry against the ottoman empire and were one of the reasons for the Russian intevention in 1878, when Bulgaria gained its independence. As a result of the Russian invasion, the Russian forces almost reached Isanbul, and around a million Turks were uprooted from their homes, hundreds of thousands perished.
The retaliation of the Ottoman state against the April Uprising was indeed brutal, but it did not have as a purpose to eradicate the bulgarian presence , on the other hand the act of ethnic cleansing undertaken by the greek regime in 1913 had as a purpose to assimilate or cleanse the slavic presence in the region:
On the explicit order of the newly crowned Greek King Konstantine, the town of Kukush was set on fire. In the villages of the same district 4725 Bulgarian houses were burnt down (Report of the Bulgarian Commission, p. 315). The Bulgarian houses were burnt in the villages of Negovan, Ravna, Bogorod; in the Doyran vilayet 11 villages were burnt, in Demir Hisar - 5 villages were burnt, in Seres district 5 villages were burnt, and in Gevgely region - 15 villages were burnt, etc.
According to the final data of the Commission, the Greeks had set on fire 161 Bulgarian villageswith a total of 16,000 houses (see p. 315 of the above mentioned report). The population was subjected to all possible violence in order to proclaim itself Greek.
In Macedonia Majority were only Albanians and Bulgarians, third majority were Turks but Greeks had very little in Manastir (Bitola)
In Manastir had over 55% albanians , today have 5%
Oh please, the lamest case is that the area was mostly ALBANIAN. Greeks have always had a major presence there, perhaps they were not outright majorities, but way more than 2%. Kosovo had only 2% Albanians as well,
Around 35,000 Chams were expelled from Greece after World War II after being accused of collaboration with the Nazi occupation, they say.They were given Albanian citizenship in 1953.
The demonstrators, carrying banners reading "We want justice" and "Stop the indifference", were demanding compensation for or restitution of properties confiscated by the Greek government.
"We want basic rights. That is our land, our property. We thank the Albanian people for keeping us until now but we want to be back at our land," demonstrator Rexhep Ceno told AP news agency.
Hahaha, funny thread this is! A very painful topic, but quite a funny thread! What a paradox...
Just one question to our Greek friends here: Why did you think that bg_turk is one-sided? Only because he has posted about the Bulgarian and Turkish casualties? Well, sorry, but, as you probably have noted it yourself, this is a very broad topic and you can't always gather enough info for all the different POVs, even if you search only in internet! And since you're here (obviously in a very warmongering mood btw) and you're surely more familiar with the Greek casualties, you can post from your side. Because, let's admit it, everyone knows most and can speak the most about his own side's casualties! And that's why such forums exist - so that people from all over the world could gather and share their own points of view. And I don't think such quick-to-offend behaviour is good in any situation... Btw now I wait for the Serbian side to come and give its own share, especially considering the actual historical outcome.
Oh, and btw, of course that there were and are villains and saints on all sides! Actually, that's one of my favourite quotes from "To the east of Heaven" (or whatever it is the English name). In every single nation there are bad people and good people, including the Balkan nations! And therefore every single nation has done some horrible and some admirable deeds, no exceptions...
Edit: And to note one thing, so that someone not so familiar on the matter doesn't get confused - the casualties in the post of Leonidas are Bulgarians in Bulgaria.
absolutly bg_turk mention only the dark side of the Greece at the Balkan war when:
forget to mention the Turkish casulties specially in the Andrianopole and Thrace from the Bulgarian Army
forget to mention the camps that opened with the cover of the Commision.At Salonica the Commission visited one of these camps, and made inquiries of the Islamic Committee, whose business it was to transport the refugees to Anatolia. They were Turkish emigrants. Some of them had left their villages several weeks ago; they came from all parts of Macedonia, from Soundja, Djoumaya-Bala, Nevrocope, Petritche, Razlogue, Tchakova, Demir-Hissar, Osmanie, Berovo, Radovitch. At the beginning of September, when the Commission made its inquiry, about 135,000 emigrants had passed through Salonica since the beginning of the second war. Each steamer starting for Anatolia carried some 2,500 bound for Mersina, Adalia or Iskenderoum.
Forget to mention the 100.000 Greeks that left from Bulgaria in Macedonia. While the 80,000 Bulgarian refugees are addressing their supplications to Sir Edward Grey, the telegraphic agency at Athens informs us that 100,000 others, Greeks by nationality, are fleeing from Bulgarian administration.
He forget to mention the Bulgar Pomaks. Report said :One example of these forced conversions during the Balkan wars has become classicthat of the pomaks by the Bulgarians. The pomaks are a people of Bulgarian mountaineers, converted to Islamism by the Turks centuries ago. To the number of some 400,000 they inhabit the high plateaus of Northern Macedonia.
And last all the article from him came from a nationalistic Bulgarian side.
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Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 11:12
NikeBG wrote: "Edit: And to note one thing, so that someone not so familiar on the
matter doesn't get confused - the casualties in the post of Leonidas
are Bulgarians in Bulgaria." Didnt i make it obvoius. You shouldnt be confused if you read my post my quote: "on the subject of Ethnic cleansing ofnon greeks in macedonia".....
"Lets look at the slavs Some
of the massacres of the slavs went a little further back than the
balkans wars, we can go back to April uprisings 1876 and start there,
to be fair to you i will use bulgarian and other slavic sources ok?" and "SlavoMacedonian memories of the 1903 Ilinden uprising"
I was showing slavic losses and atrocities to turkish/muslim hands being fair and sticking to BG's own very convenient "non greek" genocides.
Which ofcourse can be also taken as muslim/turkish voilence on slavs, slavic voilence on muslims, jews and each other. Take your pick.
"Because, let's admit it, everyone knows most and can speak the most about his own side's casualties!" .....................!!!!!
"And since you're here (obviously in a very warmongering mood btw) and you're surely more familiar with the Greek casualties," since ive posted about the april uprising and the Ilinden with photo's and sources mind you, why wont you do some reserach and post something about the greek losses
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