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Kendo/ Kumdo- is it Korean or Japanese?

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  Quote nomind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Kendo/ Kumdo- is it Korean or Japanese?
    Posted: 08-Dec-2004 at 02:41
Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner, you're not going to find any hard evidence from Korea. You have to take in to account that Japan came to Korea to destroy their culture, not to preserve records of their martial arts. It's like if someone took the deed to your house and erased it. Your house, for the most part, would be up for grabs. And if there is a struggle, the stronger party usually wins. Japan seems to be that stronger, more influential party thanks to their prosperous economy. And this isn't only a problem that Korea faces. Other victims of occupation, like Poland, face this same problem.
 
btw, i'm new. hello.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 21:38
I am a Korean and I am not going to tolerate this misunderstanding.
 
Kumdo and kendo are different arts and they are unique in both ways.
 
and Karate is NOT originated from japan.
 
Tae-Kwon is a set of move ments which was created  for sholars to understand their studies better. And it just "happened to have" a form of a martial art. Tae-Kwon was invented in goguryu dinasty which was even before japanese started to form a country 
 
Tae Kown Do is a modification of Tae Kwon which is used to train soldiers.
 
It was KOREANS who taught japanese karate and when japanes colonized Korea they banned taekwondo and started to call it karate.
 
From moderator: Part of post deleted for its offensive language.


Edited by flyingzone - 12-Oct-2006 at 22:38
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 21:58
Please wjffkdhkf, you are new here, so please respect AE Code of Conduct and mind your language and attitude. You can express your opinion in a respectful, rational, and sensible way. If you continue talking like that, you will not only not be taken seriously, you will actually be banned from AE. AE is not the kind of forum that tolerates this kind of language and attitude.
 
Try acting more like a responsible adult, not like a screaming teenager.
 
Consider this an unofficial warning to you.


Edited by flyingzone - 12-Oct-2006 at 21:59
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  Quote Easternknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 21:22
Isnt Karate a Ryukyuan martial Art?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 14:25
Kendo is a Japanese creation. Kumdo is merely the Korean way of saying Kendo. The difference lies in the instruction. Korean-style instruction might emphasize something more or less than Japanese-style instruction would. Same would go for European-style and American-style. Instruction also changes from Teacher to Teacher. But anyway Kumdo and Kendo ARE the same thing. They are not different arts, they compete together, fool.

Tae Kwon Do's evolution into a kicking sport was something very recent. Otherwise it was pretty much "Karate" in it's early inception. Tae Kyon though is supposely Korea's historical Martial Art but has been lost thru time, because of Japanese occupation or jus never existed. And Karate is Okinawan but something like Shotokan is Japanese Style Karate much like Kendo and Kumdo debate. Shotokan's forms are much longer for some reason. It's still Karate though.
    
    

Edited by Ryukyu Magic - 03-Nov-2006 at 14:32
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 18:47

Fo shizzle. I did not realize that there were Far East forum.

 

Before arguing about whether kendo is Japanese or Korea, it is important to understand the question. It's purely asking if kendo is Japanese. And yes, it is! (From my point of view, anyway.)

 

Why?

 

I am going against, Japanese people... but let's face it. Practically most, if not all, historians in the world agree with the fact that Japan was in the stage of Dark Age. Thanks to the harsh current in the East Sea (98% of the world know East Sea as Sea of Japan, but I disagree. The name of the sea was known as East Sea until the Korea was forced to annex to Japanese Empire in the beginning of World War II. After all, Korea was never significant until the beginning of Korean War.

 

Anyways, China and India brought their culture to Korea. Korea adopted to Chinese culture and began to reshape into Korean culture. The greatest influence, arguably, was the religion of Buddhism. Korea, like many other Asian nations, was full of poor and miserable commoners. Serfdom was common, and the gaps between commoners and nobles were huge compared to European civilization. (They had Christianity) Korean government, divided by many tribes back then, used Buddhism not only to provide hope to commoners, but also in attempt to unify Korea.

 

Korea also adopted the Chinese martial arts and mixed with Korean martial arts to create their unique martial arts. Against popular misconception, Korea's first marital art was not Taekwon-do. Taekon-do was never established until Joseon came to power.

 

Introduction of more advanced metalworking skills was critical.

 

Korean middle class and priests sailed to Japan, where they were welcomed as the messenger of God. Japan was, suffice to say, was not a civilized nation yet. Japanese viewed Koreans crafting swords like God creating Adam and Eve, which explains why Japanese culture view swords as sacred weapon only to be carried only by military members.

 

Kendo was designed as military reform in divided Japan, where wars were waged frequently. Like Hwarangs of Korea, Ten thousand immortals of Persia and Elite hoplites of Sparta, they were trained based on archery, swordsmanship, and horse-riding. Interesting to note is that in Korea, horse-riding was not a common training requirement... even in Kumdo. (Who's the fool now, Ryukyu Magic?) LOL

 

I am too lazy to continue, but I think you get the point now. Buddhism (Zen Buddhism to be exact... right? I may be wrong on this one.) heavily influenced the art of Kendo that taught Japanese warriors about honor, dignity and belief of afterlife. Which is among the reason why many Japanese did not fear death. It was religion, not patriotism.

 

But the point of the history is... no one is right or wrong! As long as one can justify the idea with reasonable facts and logics... you are correct. All the history we learn in books and website is bunch of lies due to the fact that winners make shape the history.   

 
Have fun debating. Sleepy
 
Prophet Malachi,
Future IB Revolutionist and eternal fan of Lord High Admiral Yi Sun-sin, the greatest navy admiral in history of mankind. 

And wjffkdhkf, just chill. I am Korean as well. We don't have to suppress other people just because they have different opinions. Heck, even Koreans often get confused with our history. Just because we are Korean doesn't mean we are the one to judge what is right in Korean history... right?

And debates between Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner and wuTao are so hilarious.Clap You two believe that the author of the book that is being used as reference is perfect historian. The reason why we gather so many reference is that just because one is recognized author does not mean he's always right. You fight like Pharisees, for crying aloud.LOL


  


Edited by pekau - 03-Nov-2006 at 18:57
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 23:51
[QUOTE=pekau] Kendo was designedas military reform in divided <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on"><ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Japan</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN>, wherewars were wagedfrequently. Like Hwarangs of Korea, Ten thousand immortals of <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on">Persia</ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN> andElite hoplites of <ST1:CITY w:st="on"><ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Sparta</ST1:PLACE></ST1:CITY>, they were trained based on archery, swordsmanship, and horse-riding.Interesting to note is that in <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on"><ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Korea</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN>, horse-ridingwas not a common training requirement... even in Kumdo.(Who's the fool now,Ryukyu Magic?)QUOTE]

Huh? I'm not sure if I'm understanding you (Or if you are understanding me) What I meant was according wjffkdhkf, Kumdo was an entirely different art from Kendo which is wrong. Korean instruction of Kumdo maybe different. I often tend to hear Koreans learn a more aggressive style of Kumdo than their Japanese counterparts. Same would be said of Europeans and Russians. Each having different flavors but it's all the same thing. It's all up to the person who's teaching.
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 23:28

Well, they originated from different war environment... and their belief was originally different (Zen Buddhism and state) but I agree with that. These days, they change the martial arts so that it suits the teachers the most. Like I said, as long as one can justify one's answer using reasons and logics will work.

 

By the way, the misunderstanding is probably me. I suck at English. I am still learning since I studies English for about 3 years. Sorry about that.

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  Quote cydevil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 05:28
Kumdo is definitely Japanese in origin. Not that Korea didn't have any martial arts involving swords, but Kumdo is just too damn Japanese to be anything of Korean origin. Hell, you even wear traditional Japanese Kimono in Kumdo, if you haven't realized it yet.
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  Quote HangPC2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 09:00


Miao Dao @ Chang Dao (Long Sword)















Miao Dao, often referred to as Chang Dao prior to Republican Era. It was developed in the campaign against pirates (or ?? - WoKou) aka Japanese Pirate @ Japanese Bandits along the Chinese coastline border in Ming Dynasty (1368 - 1644 AD).

Miao Dao, along with its martial art was less well known after as it is practice only within few martial art families.

During the war against Japanese invasion in Republican era (1912 - 1949 AD), Miao Dao is again utilised by the army. The name of "Miao Dao" was obtained during this period and the art has since opened to every martial art practitioner.

Credit

http://www.zhengwutang.com/

http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/contact.html


















Edited by HangPC2 - 10-Nov-2006 at 09:03
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 22:39
"The large-scale exports of Japanese swords to China in the early part of the Ming and the serious Japanese piracy threat during the mid-1500s also influenced and stimulated the manufacture and use of one-handed and two-handed Chinese sabers, with 2 specific characteristics:
1) Ridged cross-sections known to the Japanese as "shinogi zukuri" (an originally indigenous Chinese development, previously used in the swords of the Sui and Tang Dynasties)
2) A specific type of blade curvature similar to those of Japanese swords, known as "koshizori" (steeper arc or curve towards the guard, straightening out towards the tip), which was different from the curvatures of the typical willow leaf and goosequill sabers

In the mid-Qing, there appears to be several Imperial sabers, commissioned by Emperor Qianlong and by other high-ranking officials, and made by the Imperial Workshops, which have a ridged cross-section and 2 fullers, one long and one short, on both sides of the blade. It was most likely, modelled after one type of Japanese sword known as "naginata naoshi katana", which in turn was modelled after the Japanese naginata polearm.

Extant examples of such Chinese blades with Japanese influence can still be seen in some private and public collections. See the "Miao Dao" below."

http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo2.html

That sword your showing isn't even the "traditional" Miao Dao sword. The blade is/was much much much longer from the pictures I've seen.

As for the Miao Dao sword art, if your suggesting Kendo originated from Miao Dao like Karate from Kung-Fu, well I can't dispute that. But what I will say is if you look at Kendo and Miao Dao, you could hardly tell they had anything to do with one another. It is NOT like the Kumdo/Kendo arguement.
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  Quote HangPC2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 23:57
More Info about Korean swordmanship....

The World Haidong Gumdo Federation

http://eng.hdgd.org/


Headong Geomdo Association

http://www.geomdo.net/


The World Kumdo Assocation (Kendo/Kumdo)

http://www.wka.org/

http://www.kumdo.com/ushwarangkwan/


World Shim Soo Do Federation

http://www.itatkd.com/swordinfo.html


World Kuk Sool Association

http://www.kuksoolwon.com/


Edited by HangPC2 - 11-Nov-2006 at 00:26
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  Quote HangPC2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 00:09

Types of Korean swords

Historically there are about fifteen kinds of Korean swords some more well known, other lesser known.
Elements of the Korean sword include: gumjip or scabbard, most often of lacquer; hyuljo or blood groove; hwando magi or collar; ho in or collar; kodungior hand guard; gummagi or , gumjaroo or ,
As well there are: practice wooden swords or mok guem, steel swords shin guem and other 20th century innovations.
The list would include:
  • Ye Do(鋭刀) sword is curved, single edged, a two-handed sabre similar to those used in China in the Ming through Chi'ing dynasties.
  • Kum() sword is wide-bladed, heavy, and long.
  • Haidong Jingum(海東剣) sword are heavy swords, and can be used to cut bamboo, mats or even tree branches.
  • Jingum a less noble sword similar to the above.
  • Samgakdo( 三角刀) sword. The samgakdo, also known as triangular sword, is designed for jipdan or mat cutting practice and should NEVER be used on hard targets such as bamboo.
  • Ssang Soo Do(双手刀) is a Two-handed sword from China..
  • Ssang Do(双剣) are a kind of long knife or knives.
  • Samjeongdo(三正刀) the sword given to newly promoted Korean military generals each year by the Ministry of National Defense.
  • Wol-do(月刀) is a polearm Zanbato from China.
  • Hyup-do(侠刀) is again a variant polearm.
  • For martial arts students learning sword forms or gumpup practice wood swords or moggum are most often used; then those made out of carbonized bamboo or Juk-to; lastly compression sponge, single or double-edged, with or without blood grooves. Combinations of sword and knife fighting would use plastic blades.
 
 
Long Sword = Sang Soo Do @ Ssang Gum "Double Swords"
Japanese Sword = Wae Gum
Sword = Gum (or Kum)
 


Edited by HangPC2 - 11-Nov-2006 at 00:11
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  Quote HangPC2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 00:13
Short Sword = Dan Gum
Knife = Kal Gum
Short Sword or Knife = Dan Do
Real Sword = Jingum
Blunt (rebated) Sword (Imitation Sword @ Practice Steel Sword)  = Kagum @ Gagum @ Gumbup @ Gumpup @ Shingum
Wooden Sword = Mogum or Mok-gum
Spear = Chang
Battle Axe = Do Kki
Halberd (Moon Knife) = Wol Do
Short Staff  = Dan Bong
Middle Staff = Jung Bong
Long Staff  = Jang Bong
Flail = Jul Bong
Three Sectioned Staff = Sam Jul Bong
Archery = Gung Sool
Bow and Arrow = Gung Si
Weol Do Ahd =  Kwan Dao (China)
San Soo Do =  was a straight sword with a 50-inch-long blade, with the actual cutting edge approximately 39 inches long. It was one of the most common Korean military swords and laid the foundation for many modern weapons.
 
Ssang Gum means "Double Swords" and refers to a set of matched blaes. Its smaller brother was the Wae Gum, a set of mid-sized swords that were larger than daggers but shorter than the full sized Ssang gum. The Wae Gum were popular within Korea's royal palace and court, since they could be easily concealed within a robe.While the average soldier might use a San Soo Do and Ssang Gum, those who 
relied entirely upon their sword for battlefield defense preferred the Ah Do. Strictly a military weapon, it had a groove running the length of its 39 inch long blade for added strength. Both edges were sharpened near the tip, and the main cutting edge was sharpened its entire length.
Hyup Do weighed approximately 5 pounds and measured some 51 inches in length. Its curved single-edged blade was suitable only for the strongest of men.
Je Dok Gum was another military sword that gained popularity in Korea during Japan's first invasion attempt in 1592. At the time China was an ally of Korea, and some scholars argue that the Chinese warriors who helped the Koreans ward off the Japanese took the Je Dok Gum back to China, where it influenced the development of Chinese swords.
Ye Do @ Yeoh Do the last notable military sword was the Yeoh Do. It had a slightly curved 39-inch-long blade and a 35-inch-long handle. As such, the bearer of this blade certainly had enough leverage to cut through just about any object.
Four types of swords were available to Koreans who were not in the military. The name of each one described a weapon and a set of techniques peculiar to it:
Jeong Gum refers to a sword that was used with a linear motion
      Yeok Gum refers to a sword that was used in an inverted position
       (with the cutting   edgeup)
      Jang Ssang Gum refers to a set of long swords that were used together; and dan
Ssang Gum refers to a set of short swords that were used together.


GUM @ KUM Elements Part

Gumjip = Scabbard
Hyuljo = Blood Groove
Hwando Magi @ Ho In = Collar
Kodungi @ Kodungior = Hand Guard
Haidong = Herculoy
 



Edited by HangPC2 - 11-Nov-2006 at 00:21
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  Quote HangPC2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 00:47
Haidong Gumdo Practitioner In Hanbok Fabrication





Edited by HangPC2 - 11-Nov-2006 at 00:53
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 11:47
lol What you're showing is not the "traditional" sportified Kumdo everyone is so accustomed to seeing. Haedong looks like a mixture of what japanese called Kenjutsu and Iaido with a bunch of flippity floppity TKD-esque jumps.

This is the most practiced version I'd say nearly all of Korea practices.

    

Edited by Ryukyu Magic - 11-Nov-2006 at 11:48
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 15:49
I don't see why there is such large confusion over this matter.  Kumdo and kendo are just the respective cultures way of saying the same thing.  The sport we know today as kendo is definately Japanese and is still practiced in Korea obviously.  However, does any of this mean that Korea did not have a systematized sword fighting art or technique?  Highly unlikely...and as a result, modern Korean sword arts like Haidong Kumdo have appeared. 
 
Also, Ryukyu... Shotokan Karate IS Okinawan karate.  The influences for Karate came from China which is easily seen in the way it was originally written meaning Tang hand.  Korea also had its version which we know as Tang Soo Do, also meaning Tang Hand.  Tang Soo Do also precedes TKD.  TKD's main influence comes from Shotokan Karate.  So in essence Karate was re introduced to Korea as it was already introduced to Tang Soo Do early on, and as a result TKD was created. 
 
What this has to do with Kendo and Kumdo....very little.  But it's common knowledge that with Japanese occupation the Korean students were also taught Japanese Karate, Judo, and Kendo.  Thus resulting in Korean representations of those arts.  Also, as vaguely mantioned in a few posts Korean versions of these arts have begun to take on identities of their own, which can be easily viewed through competition. 
 


Edited by Dahmanegi - 25-Nov-2006 at 15:51
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 07:46
Wrong. Shotokan is JAPANESE-style karate. When Karate was taught in Okinawa it was just called Karate. When Karate was taught and modified in Japan by Funakoshi to teach Japanese, it was then called Shotokan. So no, Shotokan IS NOT Okinawan-style karate. It might be the same thing but the difference is in the instruction and forms.
 
That difference is just like Korean-style Kendo (Kumdo) and Japanese-style Kendo (Kendo). It's not an ENTIRELY NEW ART (LIKE SOMEONE WAS CLAIMING THEY WERE.) It's modified and subtle differences that change things. (WHICH I AGREE WITH)


Edited by Ryukyu Magic - 28-Nov-2006 at 07:50
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 12:16

You are right in that Funakoshi systematized and popularized the art he learned in Okinawa, being from there.  However, just because he named the art in Japan and changed the names for certain things while incorporating new elements, does not erase the foundation of all that he taught which is Okinawan.  The differences today may seperate the two styles, but doesn't change where they came from.   

That's exactly like saying TaeKwonDo is exclusively Korean because it was taught and renamed in Korea.  Like I already said, TKD has huge Karate influences, but today they are two vastly different styles. 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 20:06

Read what I said.

I said Shotokan is "Japanese-style Karate". I never said anything about it being 2 different arts but 2 different styles.
 
Shotokan was not exactly the same thing he taught on Okinawa. Screw the differences of today. The differences he made when he went over there already changed commerically driven Train Safe Shotokan Karate  from typical brutal Street Fighting Okinawan Karate.

The funny thing is the Okinawan karate of today adopted many Japanese things such as bowing, wearing Gi, rank systems and things like that.
 
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